 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sambo 933
Date: 2009-11-02 01:03
So this is a question about ear training.
I've gotten to the point where I can recognize intervals pretty easily, so that's not really what I'm worried about.
I am trying to find out how to make my ear more sensitive to notes that are out of tune. I can tune a guitar, and I can tell when two(or more) notes are not in tune, but usually I just end up guessing about whether they are sharp or flat. When I tune a guitar I just guess at which way to turn the knob and if that makes it go more out of tune I know my guess was wrong so I turn it back the other way. I'm really talking about notes that are slightly yet noticeably out of tune. Anything close to a semi-tone or larger I can hear. When the notes are close, but not really in tune I can tell, but again I can never be sure which one is actually in tune and whether the one(s) that isn't is sharp or flat.
Are there any methods for making one's ear more sensitive?
Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Thanks.
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-11-02 01:28
I remember having the tuning revelation in high school. Our band director showed us how to listen for the vibrations that naturally occur when two students played the same note and were not in tune. The more out of tune, the faster the vibrations in the sound waves. As the students tuned to each other, the vibrations slowed significantly.
As far as recognizing what is sharp or flat...that requires some sort of reference pitch for most of us. If you have two instruments playing the same note, and you know one instrument is in tune (by using a tuner), you could probably tell whether the second instrument was sharp or flat. I find it helpful to hear the correct note, then have the second instrument play, rather than having both instruments play together. When compared to the properly tuned note, you should be able to hear if the second instrument is slightly above or slightly below the correct pitch.
As far as being able to tell, without a reference pitch, if a random note were sharp or flat, I don't know if anyone can do that...even those with perfect pitch (the existence of which has been debated on this board).
I guess this is why the concertmaster provides the reference pitch, to which everyone else adjusts.
Incidentally, the "Sight Singing & Ear Training" class I had in college was loving referred to as "Slight Screaming & Ear Straining" by most of us.
Post Edited (2009-11-02 01:31)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-11-02 05:09
Actually, the oboe usually provides the reference pitch in many concert orchestras, and the concertmaster tunes from that.
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-11-02 11:23
I have only played with an all-wind group...not one that included string players. So, my concertmaster has always been the 1st clarinet.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-11-02 13:17
Bluesparkle, our band does the same as yours. It seems I read somewhere that once it's warnmed up, a good oboe is one of the most consistently-pitched instruments around.
Jeff
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 13:50
Matching a pitch from a tuner is useful, but it's only part of what you use a tuner for. You also need to set a pitch on a tuner and practice tuning intervals.
Begin with fifths above and below the tuner pitch, where the beats are clear and obvious. Then work on fourths and major and minor thirds, learning to hear the beats.
Set a different tuner pitch for each practice session, so that you learn the pitch tendencies of your clarinet.
Your ear and attention will tire quickly. The moment your attention wanders, STOP. Otherwise you'll be practicing how to play out of tune. Give it your best time -- the first 5 minutes of a practice session. After 5 minutes, refresh your ear by playing a beautiful tune, in a key other than the one with the reference note as the tonic. Then do one more 5 minute session.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-02 14:36
Today I believe most oboe players use a tuner to check their concert A pitch before giving it to the orchestra when the concert master requests it. At least that's what we do in the our BSO. That way everyone knows it's exactly the correct pitch which in our orchestra is A = 440, some orchestra's tune higher. Bands usually tune to the clarinet using a concert Bb, the C on the clarinet. The use of a tuner as a reference eliminates any disagreements though we actually tune to the sound of the oboe. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-11-02 14:44
I think you may be asking HOW to hear the difference better. This only comes with time and practice for those without perfect pitch but it is helpful to know that we (all of us !!) hear FLAT much easier.
So when tuning to a reference pitch (that is, any thing or any one even if THAT pitch is not right) you should start BELOW the pitch and slide up (this is why you always hear the string players making that initial tuning as a gliss up.
If you where to do that from the opposite direction, chances are that you would wind up still sitting high to your reference pitch.
In this I refer to a generated tone, NOT spinning meters or swinging needles on tuners.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-11-02 16:18
The way I would describe tuning well is that, when you get it right, the tone colours of the different intstruments (be it clarinet against piano in a duo, against an oboe in an orchestra, other clarinets in a band or whatever) the tone colours seem to blend and be almost indistinguishable from each other. This is, of course, due to the beats (cps) matching but it is a more "layman's" way of describing it.
Hope this helps
Vanessa.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 16:50
Knowing which way to move when you hear that you and another instrument are out of tune with each other is something that even very skilled musicians have trouble with. How many times have the orchestral players on this BB heard a conductor stop at an out-of-tune unison or octave meldic doubling and say to one or the other player "it's flat" when in fact that player was higher than the other (regardless of which was actual in tune with the rest of the background texture)?
Sometimes it takes prolonged, careful listening, I think because the sounds instruments make is more complex than the pure frequency emitted by an electronic tone generator (like a tuner). The fundamental of any one note produced by an acoustic instrument may not (probably isn't) even completely in tune with its own harmonics (which aren't tuned to a tempered scale), and the harmonics produced by two different instruments may clash even when their fundamentals are in tune. So, the ear can get confused when even skilled players have to make snap judgments on the fly. Unfortunately, when you're actually playing with other musicians, you rarely have more than a split second to make an adjustment without making the problem obvious to everyone else. By the way - in real ensemble performance, it isn't important at the moment of clash which pitch is "correct." It they are out of tune with each other, neither will sound right, so cooperating toward the match is more important than deciding whose fault the problem is in the first place.
Many times you know from past experience which way - sharp or flat - a particular note tends to be on your instrument, so your first attempt to tune an interval involving that note would probably be to counter that tendency. Also you can learn from experience the general tendencies of other instruments, which can give you a little help in guessing if you aren't sure which way to adjust. Otherwise, you try to hear whether you or the other instrument is higher and try to adjust accordingly. If things get worse instead of better, go the other direction. If (hopefully) it's during a rehearsal and nothing works, it's an issue to work out together during a break when the rest of the ensemble isn't involved and you can take a longer time to figure things out.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 17:06
I would only slightly quibble with you. In my experience it seems as though most musicians *hear* that sharp is out of tune easily enough, but unless they really stop to think, they initially tend to *interpret* out-of-tune-ness as flat regardless of what it actually is. Most conductors (whom I mildly slurred in my post below) will complain almost invariably that a player is flat (and then is satisfied that he was right when a good player adjusts a sharp note correctly).
BTW, I think string players start tuning (if you meant general tuning as opposed to tuning a single note in a musical context) from below because they're less likely to break a string that way. If they turned the peg first and then tried to tune downward, they'd have no real idea how tight to start and the possibility of breaking the string on that first twist up would be much greater.
Karl
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