 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-29 12:46
Alex, I tried what you said but it didnt work at all.
first I sounded the B at a piano. Then played the E full and loud. I did not hear the B in the tone. I touched the octave key which brought the B back, but then of course no E.
HOW do you get both to sound at the same time? I realize it wont be like 2 notes sounding at once. The B is proabably barely audible? but I just heard a full E and nothing more.
is this a thing you can demonstrate for someone or is it something the person has to hear as they do it themselves?
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Author: William
Date: 2009-10-29 14:30
Not having read the previous thread and assuming you are talking "piano" talk, I think you need to play an E that is a octave and a fifth below the B to get the harmonic to sound clearly. Just a guess.......
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-29 14:43
Did you play concert B on the piano? That won't work as concert B isn't in the harmonic series starting on concert D (which is low E on clarinet), so play concert A on the piano instead (which is your clarinet B) which is the 3rd harmonic of concert D and play low E on your clarinet.
Or keep the sustain pedal held down (assuming you've got an acoustic piano) and play low E loudly and stop suddenly and then listen to the sound the piano is making - the notes in the harmonic series will be sounding in sympathy with the note you played on your clarinet. This will work on any note, though dampen the piano in between notes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-29 14:52
what alex told me to do is at the end of my other thread "mediocre" sound.
Post Edited (2009-10-29 14:53)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-29 14:55
To make that other thread easier for folks to locate:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=313890&t=313890#reply_313890
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-10-29 14:56)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-29 15:20
janlynn -
Third-line B is already part of the sound of low E. It's the second overtone, but the first one that's present (remembering that the clarinet tone includes almost none of the first overtone, first line E).
The exercise is to play low E and gradually fade it out, so that you can find and bring out the overtone sound of the B. You don't play the B directly, but hear it as part of the low E. You continue to play the low E, as softly as possible, while making the B as loud as possible.
It can help to play the B briefly before you begin the exercise, so you have it in your ear to listen for. Also, playing into a corner emphasizes the overtones and makes the B easier to find.
The purpose is to learn to control the strength of the overtones, which add color to your tone.
Ken Shaw
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-10-29 15:44
Don't sound it on the piano. Play it on your instrument. The piano has no place in tone work.
How I do it is slightly different than Ken, in that I don't try to fade out the E, but rather just get it to the point that the B is very present, inside the even louder E. It won't jump out at you, you have to listen for it. I'd been playing clarinet 13 years before I heard it, because I didn't know to listen for it.
Playing the B gets the sound in your head. When you play the E, listen for what sounds like a hint of the B, an afterthought.
It'll almost sound like a ringing in your head, or like some acoustic accident because of the room you're in, but I've been able to hear it just fine playing outside with no wall in front of me to reflect it.
You could try it with any note from the lower register, as some will probably speak better than others, and maybe your E/B is one of the trickier ones. On a good day, I can slowly play a chromatic scale up from E to F and hear another scale a 12th above.
Don't expect to hear it right away. It took me about 15 seconds of holding the note at first before I heard it. Sometimes I'd put an entire breath through the lower note without hearing the upper, but gradually I figured what I needed to do and adjusted my style of tone production to match.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-29 17:11
ok, Thanks. I was doing correct. ive got the concept. just need to keep trying./listening.
have you ever wondered if you are just imagining the 12th or if you are truly hearing it?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-29 21:14
As I said, I learned it from Keith Stein, who was an amazing player as well as an amazing teacher. He demonstrated it by fading the low E almost to inaudibility, with the B quite clear and louder than the E.
Ken Shaw
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Author: TianL
Date: 2009-10-29 22:08
i just read your previous post. i actually have both an R13 and a Lyrique. Comparing the two I'd say that the Lyrique has a more even tone throughout the entire range, but the R13 does have a better sound in the middle range - more depth in the sound (not necessarily true for every R13 and Lyrique, but at least for mine).
so maybe you can try your teacher's or someone's R13 to see whether there makes any differences.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-10-30 09:19
I had done this kind of exercise a lot.
One is really just playing the low E. For me, it helped to start on the louder side.
As you play, listen for the middle B that is "inside" the low E. It might help to stand near a wall or facing a corner to help the sound bounce back at you. This is one of those things that takes time. I think I was doing it for a week or two before I could hear the middle B inside the low E.
As you asked about imagination. There is a point to be made there. If you don't imagine the middle B then you won't notice it immediately. When playing the low E, you have to vividly think about what the B should sound like and then you will notice it is there. Once you notice it is there you can bring it out more and more.
One more thing to mention is that this middle B is a little *lower* in pitch than the normal one. Suppose you play the middle B and then remove the register key, but keep playing the B, you will notice that the pitch goes down a bit. This is just about the pitch you should listen for during this exercise.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-30 12:19
I DID IT! i mean...i heard it. and then brought the E softer and heard the B louder. then I did it for the F and heard the C.
ok....now that i can do it, tell me again how this will improve my tone? lol
(i'll go look it up on the other thread)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-30 12:39
janlynn -
Strengthening the overtones adds color and "ping" to your tone. It may sound too bright to you, but out in the audience the sound becomes lively and has more "presence." Listen to recordings of Anthony Gigliotti, who had this, in spades.
The exercise trains your ear to recognize the overtones and control their strength, which in turn lets you vary your sound to suit the music.
In general, I vary my lower lip position to control this. My standard lip position is to put half the red part of my lower lip over my teeth. If I want less resonance, so that I blend well, I roll my lower lip in so that about 3/4 of the red part is over my teeth, and bring in the corners of my mouth slightly to make the pad between my teeth and the reed thicker. For more power, I point my chin, make the area between my chin and lip tighter and roll my lower lip out so only about 1/4 of the red part is over my teeth, and move the corners of my mouth out slightly so the lip is stretched thinner.
Learning this is a gradual process, but for me it made all the difference in the world. For more about varying tone color, you should read Robert Bloom's wonderful article "Whip Up a Tone Palette" at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=94788&t=94788.
You're at the point of making a big improvement in your playing. Enjoy.
Ken Shaw
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-30 14:08
I hope so Ken - that i'm at the point of making a big improvement.
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