 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2009-10-28 17:18
I wonder whether some across-the-board tuning problems are due to extra large or extra small vocal cavities; small mouth, restricted air way (of the sort that leads to sleep apnea), etc.
Thoughts?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2009-10-28 21:15
Well, I guess the mouth, nasal cavaties etc are just extensions of the clarinet mouthpiece. Also the teeth and skull bones transmit vibratons. No comment on the sleep problem.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: soybean
Date: 2009-10-28 22:12
I suppose it's possible, but i doubt the cavity size would have more than a minimal affect on tuning. What are you experiencing?
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-28 22:23
NO.
The pitch is generated from the moment the air column is set in motion by the reed.
Of course the oral cavity would have an effect on how efficiently (or not) you are producing a steady stream of air. That is, the more compact and swift the column of air you push into the mouthpiece and through your clarinet, the richer and more robust your sound will be. If you have a rather large (would bulbous be the right description?) oral cavity that cannot be streamlined via tongue position, chances are the air column will be slower than ideal as it encounters this larger area.
The restricted airway that you refer to, is caused by the flesh at the upper back of the oral cavaty becoming less firm with age. When you sleep on your back this leads to the restricted airway problem. But this should not be a problem when sitting/standing upright with a clarinet..............not to worry.
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-10-29 00:13
Paul Aviles wrote:
> NO.
>
> The pitch is generated from the moment the air column is set in
> motion by the reed.
>
> Of course the oral cavity would have an effect on how
> efficiently (or not) you are producing a steady stream of air.
The oral cavity can't do much about the air pressure ... moving your tongue to change the "speed" of the air isn't doing much to the velocity compared with the pressure differential around that narrow reed/mouthpiece opening. The effect of changing tongue position is real because:
There are TWO resonant systems in play when you set the reed vibrating ... the resonances of the instruments both in front of and behind the reed, and the interplay between them is complex and non-linear. The instrument in front is man-made, the instrument behind is a natural, organic thing. Varying either system causes some real changes in the sound we hear (and, of course, how we interpret what we hear - and how we express it in our language - is a real problem in reliable communication).
The oral cavities and sinuses have a lot to do with how you can color the sound (change the resonances) and you have to fiddle internally about to find out what does what on the inside. We have a whole pantry full of gimmicks that work, but the way they work is mostly different than what people imagine. It doesn't hurt anyone to talk about them as if there's real "physics" behind them as long as we know that by whatever method, they work.
Does this mean that some people have an easier time creating some tone colors than others? Or that some people can have a larger range or palette of colors?
Yes. We're not all equal. We all have different gifts and restrictions. It's what we do with both that matters.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-29 01:01
The term "voicing" comes to mind here. One can "voice" a note or register higher or lower with your embouchure or tongue. So I would say yes, the vocal cavity in general can have a impact on how you play in tune. A good example is that I've had many students that play their throat tones much higher then I would when I would play their clarinet with their equipment. The same with the clarion register. Often a student would play their high B and C sharp and I could easily play them in tune because I "voiced" them lower by opening my throat more and positioning my embouchure differently while still supporting. I've often used voicing to help correct bad intonation in the throat tones and clarion register as well as obtaining a better tone quality, especially if they were getting a small restricted tone. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ginny
Date: 2009-10-29 01:57
I can only think this is why my son and I can blend so well when we occasionally play together.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-29 02:16
I am really addressing AIR SPEED not AIR PRESSURE in the above. Please note that you can achieve a faster air speed through a smaller opening using EXACTLY THE SAME generated pressure. Marcellus, being fond of flying, used to refer to a small valve on engines that would experience a build up of ice ONLY due to the speed of the air moving out of the aperture.
Ed,
I hate to ask, but when you say "open your throat," what exactly do you mean?
This is important because many inexperienced players take this to mean saying the sound "AHHHHH," which (if you REALLY think about this) places the back of your tongue DOWN your throat, closing off (some) of the air flow.
NOW,
I undersand that there are different national schools of thought that I buck on this one, namely the traditional English School of playing, but I think your Combs(s), Brody(s), and Marcellus(s) would agree with my basic premise...allowing for your very valid point concerning voicing of course.
..................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-10-29 02:47
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
>
> I am really addressing AIR SPEED not AIR PRESSURE in the above.
> Please note that you can achieve a faster air speed through a
> smaller opening using EXACTLY THE SAME generated pressure.
> Marcellus, being fond of flying, used to refer to a small valve
Why of course - I AM an engineer. And you think that your tongue changes the effective opening between the reed and mouthpiece? THAT is where there is a pressure change and an increase in airspeed. Your tongue does diddly-squat since the change in pressure cause by it - and the concomitant change in speed - is essentially nil.
But you can believe what you want, as I said before.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-29 12:13
The air speed GETTING to the reed/mouthpiece is important.
Marcellus used to say, imagine blowing warm air on your hands after coming in out of the cold.
NOW
Imagine blowing a stream of air at a hot cup of coffee to cool it down.
OK?
Now use the latter not the former.
...................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill G
Date: 2009-10-29 22:56
Jack Brymer has said. in his great book:
"Of all the problems which face instrument makers, none can be said to be so completely impossible of solutipn as those of general pitch and individual tuning....{T}here is the puzzling fact that individual players do in fact produce sounds of different pitches from the same clarinet, reed and mouthpiece....
(There is) the case of at least one world class orchestra which employs two clarinettists whose sound blends perfectly, who normally play well in tune, who use the same model clarinet, the same grade of mouthpiece and reed, and who can in fact play each other's instrument in comfort and with pleasure-yet who, when they do so, find that the pitch of one is almost a quarter-tone above that of the other. (There must be a good medical reason for this.)" (Brymer, CLARINET, pp131-32)
I agree with Brymer, notwithstanding all the foregoing discussion, but am mystified as to an explanation. I must use a short barrel, and don't believe my sound-production techniques are responsible. I do know that I have a very small oral cavity, but I can't see how this could affect pitch.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-10-30 00:05
Bill G wrote:
>> I agree with Brymer, notwithstanding all the foregoing discussion, but am mystified as to an explanation. I must use a short barrel, and don't believe my sound-production techniques are responsible.>>
Well, the great Jack Brymer said that it was inexplicable.
And, you agree with him (for whatever that's worth).
In addition, it occurs in his 'great' book.
So it must be one of the great mysteries, mustn't it?
....contra what other people, including scientifically literate other people, have plausibly said.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill G
Date: 2009-10-30 00:58
"Ouch!", Mr. Pay. I respect you, and think you are "great", but I doubt that you are infallible.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2009-10-30 01:25
The air in a cavity (like your mouth) has a resonant frequency that is dependent on (among other things) its volume. Generally speaking, the bigger the volume, the lower the resonant frequency. (With any kind of resonator, in fact--electromagnetic resonators such as radio antennas, for example--bigger size usually means lower resonant frequency, all other things remaining equal.)
You can read about this phenomenon on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmholtz_resonance
I don't know how applicable--if at all--the formulas in the article are to what we're talking about (since we're not really talking about "Helmholtz resonators," in a strict sense), but the basic idea is the same, and as you can see at the end of the article, the same basic principles apply whether you're talking about the resonance in the body of a violin, a djembe drum, or an ocarina. They all have resonant air cavities that work in a similar way.
In fact, one of the tricks I use to stay in tune when I'm playing with someone else is to adjust the size of my oral cavity to pull the note to pitch--most of the time it's making the space inside my mouth bigger to bring the pitch down, because most of the time I'm dealing with notes that are sharp. I was never taught to do this--I just sort of figured it out on my own--but I have a feeling it's similar to (if not the same as) what Ed P is describing when he says he opens his throat. It feels that way--definitely an opening up of sorts. And I can say from personal experience that it DOES work!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-30 02:02
I would humbly (and with a tad bit of trepidation) throw out the idea that perhaps along with "opening up" your oral cavity, there may be a bit of relaxing the jaw, loosening the embouchure - things that make more of a difference to pitch in MY PERSONAL (and no one elses) EXPERIENCE.
I do get a different response from the reed (in respective dynamics and or registers) using various voicings, but the difference of pitch between voicing the "OOOOOO" sound vs. the "EEEEEE" sound is, for me, nothing.
...................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-30 03:30
Paul, in answer to your question about what I mean by an opened throat I do cover that subject on my website in one of my clarinet articles but simply put I mean to have the throat free of obstruction so the air can pass through freely. I am able to do that and still keep the position of my tongue where I need it to be. I am able to say the syllable O or OH and still keep the back of my tongue up by my upper molars. That may not work for everyone but it works for me and I've had success in teaching that technique. I've often told my students that yawning positions their throat as opened as possible. Of course it isn't possible to play that way so one has to be realistic about just how opened your throat can be and still be able to voice properly to get a good sound and control. I consider the way I play and teach as "voicing low" in the back of my throat but voicing the pitch with my tongue and embouchure. I'm sure I'll get some disagreement on this but that's the way I do it. It's a lot easier to show a student in person than to explain it because it could be somewhat different for each person. We're not all built the same which is why sometimes one has to make adjustments in the way they teach to fit the student.
I agree with Jack Brymer 100% in what he says about two players that play well in tune with each other. I have yet to come across two people that are built exactly the same in every aspect that involves playing the clarinet. Teeth, tongue, lip, jaw, oral cavity, throat, lungs, and whatever else we use to produce a sound. I suggest every clarinet player reed Brymers book, it's a very informative read. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2009-10-30 03:39
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I would humbly (and with a tad bit of trepidation) throw out
> the idea that perhaps along with "opening up" your oral cavity,
> there may be a bit of relaxing the jaw, loosening the
> embouchure - things that make more of a difference to pitch in
> MY PERSONAL (and no one elses) EXPERIENCE.
Not really. I do it by moving my tongue back in my mouth. It does create a sensation of a more "open throat" as Ed P mentioned. The more I think about it, the more I believe he and I are talking about the same thing.
> I do get a different response from the reed (in respective
> dynamics and or registers) using various voicings, but the
> difference of pitch between voicing the "OOOOOO" sound vs. the
> "EEEEEE" sound is, for me, nothing.
I don't have particular vowels I use when I play, so it's a little difficult to explain to someone else what I do. But I agree with you that the difference between "OO" and "EE" won't do it, though--not enough change in oral cavity volume to make much difference. You need to do something a little bit more like the difference between "EE" and "AH." It's not really an "AH," but it's more open like one.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-10-30 15:02
mrn's insight is consistent with some recent reading of academic work that says that the player's air tract can lower the pitch, but do very little to sharpen it.
Also, it turns out that the reed is a pretty good isolator between the player and the clarinet --making the mathematical examination of the clarinet without consideration of the equally complex "instrument" built into the player's body necessary. Modeling the clarinet in isolation -assuming an air source- is a pretty good approximation.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
