 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-10-27 20:49
I have a new and very fine playing high school student. He has an R13 from the late 1980s, if that matters , and the instrument is extremely sharp. We played around with a couple of different mouthpieces and barrels, and what works for the R13 to be in tune is a 68mm barrel. I have a couple of 68mm barrels from different manufactures and both work fine. Any comments ? I have been doing this for a while and I find it very unusual. He has Fobes and Smith mouthpieces and they also make little difference.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-10-27 20:58
Is it consistently sharp in all ranges, or worse in some than in others?
Your answer to this will make a big difference in finding what the remedy or remedies might be.
(Check out Ed Palanker's article about tuning on his Web site.)
B.
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-10-27 21:08
It is sharp though out. This not an embouchure or covering the keys issue.
Post Edited (2009-10-27 21:14)
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-10-27 22:02
I should have asked "How much out of tune? 5%? 20?" first, but...
If it's consistently sharp in all ranges, unless Buffet suddenly changed the design so that a 68mm barrel is meant to be used to tune it to A = 440, a longer barrel isn't going to fix sharpness that's consistent everywhere on the clarinet.
As the tube gets longer by closing tone holes, the lowering of pitch (to simplify things greatly) will be more evident the shorter the tube because the proportion of change at the top joint is greater than near the bell.
Again, I refer you to Ed Palanker's article, but assuming the clarinet was okay when it was young, pulling out at the bore and bell doesn't help, and the bore hasn't changed considerably with age and maybe misuse, the next things to look for are correct pad height, leaking pads in the top joint, and maybe a register tube problem.
If that isn't it, then someone should look at the bore (and correcting any problems there will be expensive).
Or you may have one of the infamous "high pitch" clarinets, but my knowledge of those only extends to one Buffet RC that plays perfectly in tune with a 66mm barrel.
My two cents, and now I'll leave it to the experts who work on instruments. In my limited experience, though, I've never played a clarinet that was consistently sharp or flat in relation to A = 400 throughout it's range unless it was designed to be.
B.
Post Edited (2009-10-27 22:47)
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-10-28 00:39
He uses a Fobes 2L and a Gregory Smith 1. The barrels he came to me with are a Chadash 66mm, a Fobes 66mm and a 65mm of some kind.
I did not talk to him about maintenance, but he is a very fine player, the instrument responds nicely and there are cork pads in the upper joint. He mentioned tuning issues during the first lesson after I told him he was very sharp. I then pulled out a couple of tuners and we started the process.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-10-28 01:07
Ok my friend had a R-13 and a 5rv lyre(442 pitch) mouthpiece and it came with a 66mm barrel and he had a trouble playing in pitch at 442 and he could get up to 441 when well warmed up. Then he was told by the music store who is the only Buffet dealer in Iceland(or the only retail store for woodwinds that is) and they told him that it was failure from Buffet because all clarinets going to Europe(except UK I guess) should deliver with a 65mm barrel and his clarinet was supposed to go to USA.
I can play fairly well in tune with my 440 pitch mouthpiece with 66mm barrel(but only after I'm well warmed up) on my Buffet Festival clarinet but on my back-up R-13 Prestige I need a 65mm barrel.
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-10-28 01:19
I am thinking something must have changed in the instrument. He has been playing for quite a few years at a high level and I cannot believe that his previous teachers and directors in another city would not have noticed or would have just have ignored this.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-28 01:27
Check out the article "Tuning Hints" on the clarinet articles page in my website as suggested by B. There's nothing wrong with using a 68mm barrel if that works in all registers. I use a 67mm on my Buffets, both A and Bb, both from the 60s. I used to use a 68 on my Bb but was always flat until I was really warmed up so I went to a 67 and pull out a bit once I am all warm and cuddly. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: am0032
Date: 2009-10-28 01:37
I had a problem much like you are describing where everything on my R13 was quite sharp. I eventually took it to my repair tech for a complete overhaul and oil emersion. He told me that he believes that the oil emersion helps to bring the shape of the bore/instrument to its original condition. I did not believe his story until I played it and I had to use my 66 barrel just like I had originally done when I purchased the instrument. It also had a softer feel to the touch. Many of the qualities that I liked when first got the clarinet were again restored and the sharpness was gone. Contact me offline if you would like more information about my tech person.
Adam
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-10-28 01:44
Thank you. I did read it and it was helpful. I also found a piece that Clark Fobes wrote.
What has me a bit confused is that I have never heard a R-13 that plays this sharp, and it would astonish me that no one in the 4 or 5 years that he has owned this instrument has been alarmed by this tuning problem.
We will work on it and then sit down with a good repair tech and see what he thinks. The 68mm barrel seems to work and reduces the issues to some of the familiar quirky tuning issues of a lot of R-13s that my students have played over the years.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-10-28 16:30
Check the serial number.
If it has an "F" prefix, it is intended for "French" tuning at A=442. I have an early '60s "F" full Boehm Buffet that has a very uneven scale. It came with a longer barrel to compensate for use in USA A=440.
It also came with a mouthpiece gauge and a warning to use only mouthpieces that match the gauge. By happenstance last week, I picked up that horn and played it with a Selmer HS* mouthpiece, and the scale evened out a LOT.
The gauge is just a rectangular piece of waxed cardboard that is 13.5 -mm (.528 -inches) wide and 54-mm (2.12 -inches) long. There were no instructions on how to use the gauge, but with the reed on, the Selmer HS* allows the gauge to insert so that the mark at 54-mm just meets the end of the mouthpiece tenon. The lines that mark the edges and ends of the gauge are about a millimeter wide, so something about 1/2-inch x 1-1/8 inch would suffice, or trying your student's instrument with the Selmer HS*, and a Zinner blank might give some insight into the instrument's intonation.
My usual mouthpieces, a Vandoren M30/13 and a Zinner blank faced by Lee Livengood are both about 3-mm longer. They work fine on my Buffet RC, but are intolerable on the "French" tuned instrument.
Good luck, and share your findings with us. Thanks
Bob Phillips
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Author: susieray
Date: 2009-10-28 20:50
I use a 66mm barrel on my 1961 R13 and pull out at least 2mm when I'm fully warmed up....I generally pull out 1mm at the center, and 1-2mm at the barrel. It works for me. Never thought of it as a problem.
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-10-28 21:34
,,,,,I use a 66mm barrel on my 1961 R13 and pull out at least 2mm when I'm fully warmed up....I generally pull out 1mm at the center, and 1-2mm at the barrel. It works for me. Never thought of it as a problem,,,,.
Hmm... maybe you are right. We tried some of that and it affected the tuning elsewhere. I am going to loan him the two 68mm barrels that I own and have him work with a tuner. If he finds the instrument consistent using those barrels that may do it. However, I have never used a barrel that long nor have any of the many students I have taught over the years, and that is why it struck me as odd.
I want to thank all who are responding to this thread.
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Author: OldClarinetGuy
Date: 2009-10-29 02:41
,,,,,Is it also sharp when you play it, or only when he plays it?
Chris.....
It is sharp for both of us with different mouthpieces, although his Fobes mouthpiece is slightly sharper that his Gregory Smith or my mouthpiece He comes in for a lesson Friday and I really need to get more of a feel for where he is technically and musically rather than dwell on this issue for now. But, we will spend some time on it.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-10-29 17:18
I gave up on getting a new R13 because I found the intonation so widely variable in the throat register. This after trying about 20 regular R13s...so maybe next time I might have better luck.
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