 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 14:29
for a little background; I have played for many years without much direction other than the band teacher 4-12th grade. had my first "real" teacher a few months before going to a state college in the music program. Played in college for about 2 years and dropped out. stopped playing for 12 years or so. Picked it back up about 12 or so years ago, first having a few lessons to get me going again and then joining the community wind symphony. Presently I have been taking private lessons for just over 2 years.
all in all, I do not 'sound' as advanced as the numbers of years might dictate. I sound Highschoolish (no offense to highschoolers) but my sound stays mediocre. recently my teacher made the comment; "I know how much you like your clarinet (a Lyrique) but I would love to hear what you could do on a Buffet." It made me really start listening and questioning my sound.
when I started, I played an old Vito. I got a Buffet R13 for college but then dropped out and the clarinet was not properly cared for and was ruined. After getting back into playing I then got a Selmer Signature. It was never quite right for me and I sold it a couple years ago and got the Lyrique. I have enjoyed playing the Lyrique and never questioned it until my teacher made that comment. and then last night in quartet rehearsal another player commented that I wasnt loud enough.
It has all got me thinking that my sound remains mediocre no matter what clarinet I use. my sound is my sound. but how do I improve it (other than practicing)....do I get a Buffet R13 like my teacher suggested? Do I try a new mouthpiece (i have tried many in the past) or do I try new reeds? (i have tried many in the past). Or do I just accept that I am a mediocre player? I think I have played and practiced long enough to sound more advanced than I am - it seems to me if a clarinet is advertised to have a rich, full sound - it certainly may - but I cannot produce it.
where do I go from here? (a new teacher is not an option).
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Author: William
Date: 2009-10-27 15:06
"Sound" is more a result of your mind's concept of "what is good" and how well you condition your embouchure and learn to coordinate it with your own oral configuration (mouth cavity & tongue) through consistant, meaninful practice than with your equipement. Of course, all pieces--instrument, mouthpiece & reed, etc--must be in good condition to allow you to play & sound well, but the main & most influential component is *you*, and you alone. Remember that there is no one perfect sound, only desirable tonal characteristics--intonation, resonance, blend, clarity, etc.--that is mainly the result of good clarineting, not necessarily good equipement in and of itself. Your sound probably isn't as "mediocre" as you think but just needs more fucus and refinement via good ole' fashioned "woodshed'n" (practice).
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-27 15:12
An R13 ia not the magic cure-all for a problem with your sound, and if your teacher thinks the problem is because you are playing a Lyrique, your teacher doesn't know much about the Lyrique or its pedigree. You might explain that the Lyrique was designed by Tom Ridenour, and exactly who Tom is.
Outside of that, does your sound magically improve when you play your teacher's instrument, using your currrent mouthpiece, reed and ligature? If not, then buying an R13 is not the magic cure, and your teacher has been captured by the Buffet Mafia.
Jeff
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 15:19
I did explain about the Lyrique to her and who Tom Ridenour is. She already knew of him. and she was impressed with the instrument when I first started my lessons.
Her Buffet R13 is 33 yrs old and she said its all dried out and shes been wanting a new one. So I dont think trying her horn would be an accurate trial? I asked her about oiling it and she said its just not the same as a new one. I would love to try a new one 'just to see' but dont know how to do that without dishing out a lot of money for a trial.
In my opinion my sound is medicore, bright and edgy at times. maybe this will be of more help in what direction i need to practice/go?
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 15:33
Wlliam .... wouldnt you think that after playing for so many years my sound would had 'developed' by now? other clarinet players with the same or less experience have a nicer sound. (and i dont think i'm just being hard on myself)
I was wondering.....do you think it would be weird to ask someone who could really evaluate me to my home? I have a driving anxiety and could not get to someone - like out in boston. do you think its inappropriate to ask someone to come to me?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-27 15:37
Have you checked out some of Tom's YouTube videos? They're quite helpful.
I also got a copy of his two books on the clarinet. One deals with fingerings for all the notes, and the other one talks about just about everything about clarinet playing. It's called "The Educator's Guide to the Clarinet." The book discusses proper voicing and how to produce a good tone and one that is focused. Excellent reading for all clarinet players, and IMO, well worth the money spent. Ignore the lack of proofreading and just concentrate on the theoretical aspects of the clarinet.
BTW... I sound no better on a classic "golden era" Buffet R13 than I do on my Lyrique. I have one of each. The tuning on the Lyrique is better! And she's wrong about the oiling, too. If she were to have a competent tech disassemble the instrument totally and give the wood a long bath in organic oil, she would be amazed at the recovery her instrument might make. A 30 year old R13 might actually be a better instrument than many off the production line today, simply given the decline in wood stock quality over the years. My R13 dates to 1966 and my daughter's is a 1971 vintage. Far better wood than today's models.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-10-27 15:41)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-10-27 15:41
Janlynn,
If you are in Massachusetts and really want to try new instruments, check Albert Alphin in Needham. I am sure he has some in stock and you can at least go and try in his shop. Unfortunately, I am not sure getting a new instrument will get you where you want to be.
You already have a teacher, and you seem to be aware of what can be done to build up one's sound. But here is what has worked for me, long tones, long tones, long tones, slow large interval studies, dynamic flexibility study on long tones (produce round, square, triangle waves of dynamics), tone color changes: bright, dark, reedy, etc...
In the end I find the key is to "hear" what you want to come out of the clarinet, before you try to produce it.
Now, if you really think equipment changes can help you, here are my recommendations:
1- REED: Start with finding reeds that work well with your mouthpiece and learn to balance/adjust them. If you sound too dark, fuzzy and quiet, consider going to a softer reed. If you sound bright, edgy and maybe flat in upper register, consider going to a harder strength.
2- MOUTHPIECE: This may make things worse as there are so many choices and if you don't really know what you are looking for it can be very frustrating and expensive. Maybe your teacher can help guide you in the right direction. Again someone like Albert Alphin will have quite a few mouthpieces in stock and you can always go to his shop and try a few.
After this, barrel and bell and then the actual clarinet....
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 15:46
I asked her about the quality of wood today compared to 'back then' and she said she doesnt see why there would be a differnce.
you know..... this is a very hard thing for me to say, but i'm beginning to wonder about my teacher...i like her very very much as a person, and she has helped me so much in the 2 yrs i have had lessons with her, but she seems a bit closed minded at times.
i mean, its not like shes just some kid who likes to teach. she has a masters in music performance and education etc...has lots of teaching and playing expereince.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 16:04
unfortunately i cant drive too far and needham is too far for me. shes been meaning to bring me to leonards for awhile but things just always come up. mainly to meet Michael Leonard and have a pad fixed but possibly to try some clarinets too. but i dont know when that will happen and i cant drive there myself.
Jeff - i have seen Tom's videos and I have the educators guide to the clarinet as well, tho it has been many years since i have taken a look at it.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 16:12
hey - maybe i can buy her old horn and have it re-oiled. get the clunky keys fixed ....
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 16:21
I am playing 5RV Lyre Profile 88
have tried gregory smiths, walter grabners, 5RV13, M13, and various others thoughout the years. but I keep going back to the 5RV Lyre. seems to work the best. my sound is even worse with others. i just cant try them all. too many to decide on.
I figure if professional models like Grabner and Smiths werent doing it for me, what else can I do?
I would love to try one of Brad Behns but its just too much even for a trial.
Post Edited (2009-10-27 16:23)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-10-27 16:30
I don't know how else to say it, but maybe the problem exists between mouthpiece and chair. A "highschoolish" sound tends to originate from the player as much as the equipment, if not more so, in my experience.
What sort of tone and airstream work do you do in your lessons and practice?
Also, low confidence and inattentiveness to phrasing and line can often translate indirectly to a poor sound.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 16:46
good points alex. I would say I havent done much work on those things. She did teach me how to breathe properly and breath support when I first started.
we have worked on hand position a lot. she has taught me about clipping notes, at the moment we are working on high notes and i am doing octave exercises out of the Baermann III book. went through all the scales, and minor scales, whole tone scales and chromatics. went through the Rose Studies and have started the 6 Bach Suites. But we/I havent worked alot on tone and airstream.
so what kinds of things do you do to work on those? just long tones? or dynamics?
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 16:49
one last thing - After her comment about wanting to hear me on a Buffet -thats what got me to start questioning myself and my purchase of my Lyrique.
But it sounds to me from the responses that I dont NEED a buffet to get a good sound. The Lyrique is fine, there are other things to work on???
still ...one always wonders......if this, if that...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-27 17:05
Far too many answers. Unless there's something wrong with the instrument you're using I really doubt that's at fault but I can't tell unless I played it, as your teacher should do. Has she played it in front of you? If so, did she sound more mediocre then she does on her own clarinet. It seems to me that you present teacher should have some ideas of how to help you improve your sound. It could be your mouthpiece, it could be your reeds but it could certainly be you. Your embouchure, tongue, throat, teeth formation, etc. Perhaps if your teacher does not have the answer you need to find another teacher that is more experienced.
ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 17:09
thats a good idea Ed. she played it when i first got it couple years ago. I dont remember her sounding not as good on my clarinet than on hers. but i think i will ask her to play it again. just to see. and i will ask to play her clarinet. just to see.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-10-27 18:26
Long tones, with conscious thought to making the sound full, and to making each note sound exactly like the one before it. Experiment with different angles of yourself and your clarinet, and different ways of pushing air through the horn. See how these impact your sound.
You could also look into posture. My tone improved dramatically after I took a few Alexander technique classes, which led to positioning myself differently to the end of having a much more solid airstream.
It's also largely a matter of realizing that you are making a sound happen through all the things you are doing, and not that a sound is happening as a happy side effect of the things you are doing. Being actively engaged in the sound production process can make a big difference, and you may begin to notice how the slightest adjustment in some aspect of playing a note can change what it sounds like entirely.
When you say you "went through" all that stuff, did you just keep playing through each of them until your fingers knew where to go and you could play them all with acceptable accuracy to the metronome, or did you take it further than that?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 18:50
i would say i went a little further, like with phrasing and articulation, where to take breaths, of course playing with the metronome, alternate fingerings, hand position... i mean, it was more than just playing until its acceptable - but not much 'real' work.
i'm starting to see the picture here. I dont think I push myself hard enough. but i still need the guidance of someone who knows what i should be doing to achieve my goals. i cant push myself harder if i dont know what to do, right?
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2009-10-27 21:17
After many years of playing clarinet, I truly believe that while the clarinet, barrel, mouthpiece and even reed all have an effect on your sound, YOU have the greatest effect. The combination of the Lyrique and 5RV Lyre should permit you to produce a varied palette of sounds.
As an example, a colleague of mine is a fine clarinetist who play a wide variety of styles including classic, contemporary and Klezmer (at which he truly excels). He had just bought a new (handmade) mouthpiece with popular classical facing. I asked if he would use it for Klezmer. He said (basically) "I use the same setup for everything--it's only my concept that changes". I can assure you he sounds very different across all the styles that he plays.
Of course we're all constrained by our physical gifts, but I think the most important aspect of sound is the "concept" you have in mind when you play. At various times I have attempted to emulate aspects of the sound from several players whose tone I admire: Pete Fountain, Robert Marcellus, Karl Leister, Harold Wright, etc. This helped me to formulate a concept of the sound I wanted to produce.
Without knowing your physical abilities and sound concept, it is hard to say exactly how you would go about producing it. However, in my experience, the airstream is key. You can't have too much air support, and varying aspects of the airstream (e.g., from focused/faster to diffuse/slower) can greatly affect the resulting sound. In addition a strong, well-formed embouchure that provides support for the tone without constraining the reed's vibration is also essential. Finally, it may be helpful to think of "singing though" the instrument instead of "blowing into" it.
You also need to know when you are making a difference in your tone quality, and ones own ears are sometimes unreliable in discerning this. Your teacher could be one adjudicator but having a good friend with a keen ear who can listen more frequently may even be better. I've also found that making recordings of yourself is very helpful in determining whether/how your sound is changing. You don't necessarily need a great recorder for this since you can just listen for improvements.
I would also say that working even a little bit on reeds can yield great improvements in your sound. With a little experimentation you can find techniques that will greatly improve your sound and technique whatever setup you use. I have found that just using reed rush works for me although others have found that Tom Ridenour's ATG works very well. I will work on new reeds in 2-4 sessions, perhaps several days apart, about 5 minutes per. In each session I begin with the worst reed (so that my touch is at its best on the best reeds). In the first session, I will use the rush to polish the vamp of the reed to remove any rough spots. In successive sessions, I seem to have success mostly polishing just the left side of the reed (consistent with the urban legend that Vandorens are stronger on the left side!).
Good luck in achieving YOUR sound.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: ginny
Date: 2009-10-27 21:41
I find my tone improves if I sing "ah" like a baritone, then make my tongue go into an "eeee" (as in eel) and still singing make my lips form oou as in look or book. It almost sounds a like I'm singing a multiphonic note when it comes out. If I hold that shape, my tone gets much closer to what I think I want.
For finger speed I'm on a more air than sound jag this week.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-27 22:15
Janlynn -
I'm worried about your statement that "I don't think I push myself hard enough." At some point, playing better, it seems to me, is more about relaxation than pressure.
Keith Stein taught me the following exercise. Stand facing into a corner of the room, take a good breath and play a full forte low E. Open up and let the air flow out, getting as much energy into the sound as you can. Then diminuendo gradually, listening for and bringing out the third-line B a twelfth above. With practice, you will be able to fade the low E out almost entirely, so that the B is actually louder than the E.
Then do the same on low F, bringing out the C above, and so on.
When you can control the overtones, making them stronger or weaker, you gain control over your tone. The stronger the overtones, the more lively and "clarinetty" your tone becomes.
Bringing out the overtones is not a matter of pushing yourself. Instead, it's about listening harder and finding the "ping" in your tone. You then keep that going while trimming away the other things -- decreasing effort.
Listen to great musicians, who let the tone and the music flow out, seemingly without effort. Itzhak Perlman, for example, often holds the bow with just his thumb and forefinger, letting it rest on the string with just its own weight. The power and beauty comes from having the bow hair contact the string at exactly the right point, at the right speed.
Strive to do more with less. When you listen to John McCormack sing, you never hear him pushing. Instead, he finds the right, low pressure, and the tone soars out. Frank Sinatra did the same.
The best thing about doing it this way is that you have lots of flexibility left to phrase beautifully.
I know that by "pushing harder" you mean "force yourself to practice more." But practice doesn't help until you learn to listen for and work on the right things.
It's not about equipment. As long as you have a decent reed and mouthpiece, and your clarinet's pads don't leak, you can sound good on anything. Learn to sound good on what you have. What needs the work is your mind, not your clarinet.
Ken Shaw
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-27 23:02
but dont I need my teacher to teach me what to listen for and how to work on it, rather than tell me i would sound better on a Buffet?
and thank you everyone for your replies. each one gave me much to think about.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-28 01:34
Check out my website and go to the Clarinet Articles page and read the clarinet basics article to get some ideas of what you should be doing right, and not doing wrong. It can be a simply solution for a very complicated one. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-10-28 02:27
I have no teaching experience
I was trying to help my 11 year old daughter get a better tone, and wrote out the things below.
Although the facts may not be entirely right, it was the imagery I was trying to get at for her (sometimes more helpful for a child). Some of her habits were poor support of her tone with diaphragm, being too tight on the reed, even not taking care setting the reed on the mouthpiece.
1. Fill the bell with the sound
2. Imagine a candle 2 metres away on the floor. Move the flame when playing, even with the quietest of notes.
3. Hear the note before you play it
4. Your body is part of the instrument. The tone starts in yours lungs and shaped by your throat. You resonate with the instrument
5. Position the reed on the mouthpiece very carefully – when it closes there is a fraction of mouthpiece visible on the tip and no gap at the rails
6. Imagine that the tip makes the sound, but rails make the tone with the chamber of the mouthpiece
7. Seal the sides of the mouth with more of a frown than a smile
8. Take as much mouthpiece into your mouth (supported by the bottom lip over the bottom teeth) that will allow the reed tip and sides to vibrate
9. Remind yourself of the right pressure for tone. Playing long notes, drop your jaw slowly until the reed makes no sound, then raise jaw pressure slowly until it is so tight the reed closes. Slowly go back up or down with jaw, less each time, around the best tone and hone in on it and sustain
10. Practice tonguing exercises in scales as well as long notes
I suppose to help with tone, you have to work out what is wrong and design some exercises to solve those problems. If the reed isn't on the mouthpiece properly, no amount of long notes will help!.....
Chris
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-10-28 04:21
You do need your teacher to do those things. While I do think my previous teachers were quite good in many ways, my current teacher is the first to give specific guidance in listening for and improving tone.
I second Ken's suggestion. It's similar to what my current teacher has me doing, and it blew my mind the first time I did it. You might also play the B very briefly and softly before the E, to give you something to listen for.
Pushing yourself harder is not the way to do it, imho. If pushing is required, it means there is resistance to something you are trying to do, which tends to indicate that you are doing something "because you're supposed to" rather than because you realize it can help you with something and why. If anything, the technique and tone work should be engaging enough to pull you in.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-28 12:39
thanks for the added suggestions.
ken or alex ....can you explain that exercise again im not quite sure what you are saying. I think its "more" than just playing low E and adding the octave to make it a B, but i'm not sure what that "more" is.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-28 13:24
Here are a coupole of breath control exercises:
1. Take a piece of paper, say 4x6 inches, and hold it against a wall with one finger. Begin to blow onto the paper, forming close as possible to your usual clarinet embouchure. Then, remove the finger from the paper, and try to keep the paper against he wall, using nothing except the force of your breath.
2. Light a standard match. Begin to blow on the flame, without extinguishing the flame entirely. Blow hard enough to extinguish the upper, yellow part of the flame, but keep the blue flame at the bottom, near the match head still going as long as possible.
These were exercises my old teacher gave me back in the early '70s. I can't remember the third one right off, but I will post it if I recall it. I'm getting old.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-10-28 13:55)
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-28 13:44
Jeff - I really like those exercises. I'm going to try those!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-10-28 16:00
Try this... Play mid-staff B very quietly and very briefly, and remember what the pitch sounds like. Then play low E as full and (for now) loud as you can. Really listen to the sound, and you should start hearing a bit of that B speak inside the sound of the E.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2009-10-28 16:29
ohhhhh kinda like a multiphonic? will i be "perceiving" the B sound or will it be sounding at the same time as the E?
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Author: winthropguy
Date: 2009-10-28 17:16
I would like to say thank you for all these great tips - as a returning player, getting my tone back in shape is frustrating and these are some great exercises and ideas!
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