 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-08-17 01:38
Odd question, I know...but does anyone have any good ideas on how a person could minimize his or her skin acidity just prior to playing?
My reason is two-fold:
1. I have a very old clarinet which is silver-plated over brass. The areas where continuous contact are made between the skin and the finish result in an eventual "eating away" of the finish, and an exposure of the brass underneath. (All pictures I have seen of this model of clarinet show the same "wear" on them, so I know it isn't just me).
2. I know that even older trumpets, trombones, etc., have similar wear, even though it appears to take much longer on most of them.
I know that even "standard" clarinet keys experience some wear and degradation of finish over time, but I'm suspicious there is a fair amount of friction involved on clarinet keys in addition to whatever other forces degrade key finish.
I have been guessing it has something to do with the PH or general acidity of the player's skin, but this is only a guess. I have attempted to wash my hands in a grand list of various cleansers, but I still see no difference.
Does anyone have any guesses whether or not this is indeed, caused by acidity, and if so - would rinsing one's hands in a baking power or ammonia solution just prior to playing help prolong such a finish? Is a there a commercial solution?
Thanks for entertaining my odd question(s).
As always, everything is getting,
Fuzzy
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-17 01:43
Acidity and friction are involved; the only solution to prevent further wear is to cover the metal with something. Many people use clear nail polish and it works well. The only other option (that I know of) are to replate the keys.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-08-17 12:49
Other than washing your hands thoroughly before playing, there's not a lot you can do. Al Gallodoro had such corrosive sweat that he had to have all the metal parts of his instruments gold plated, which will work but isn't cheap.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-08-17 13:11
I have it. Think about it. The acidity IS in your system so washing your hands makes no difference whatsoever as long as your sweat glands continue to function (and they should while you're still breathing!).
As stated above gold plate is the only corrosive resistant metal. A note on this is that I have the Yamaha CSG-H with the "Hamilton Plating." This is a nickel/gold combination which works great, BUT, the plating is SO thin that now after two years of solid use, the friction part of the equation has worn some of the most abused areas off the underplate.
So the ultimate solution is to plate in gold more than just 3 microns of thickness.
As a defense, instead of washing your hands, wash the keys. That is, make sure you wipe them off each night with a 100% cotton flannel cloth. As long as you're diligent, this will prevent future wear and should prevent any errosion on new horns.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-08-17 19:16
You could have the keys rhodium plated.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2009-08-17 20:31
I read about a guy who's touch was really corrosive to firearms. When he went on a low salt diet, this problem went away.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-08-17 21:14
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm planning to go straight out and get my keys lead plated! :P
The low sodium observation was pretty neat and insightful. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply here (already low sodium).
The fingernail polish idea is really neat too, but the clarinet in question is from 1898 and I would prefer to try to perserve the finish as close to original as possible.
The idea about gold is really good too, but wouldn't work in this particular application.
The finish is very unique and suffers the same fate regardless of who owns it, etc. - as all of the models I have seen suffered the same loss of finish. I've seen pictures of two others like it, and they both suffered the same issue. However, I had never realized how rapidly the loss was until I had played one for a month or so - the slight variations of my hands compared to the previous owner have wore a few more places down to the brass underneath, and slightly discolored (lightened) the surrounding area(s).
Chris...rhodium plating...what does that entail? Is it a dip procedure?
That pretty much leaves me to the cleaning of the instrument after each practice/performance. So I'll head down that path unless I hear more that points me in another direction!
Thanks again for all the replies - it was much more than I had anticipated.
Fuzzy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-08-17 21:22
Rhodium is electroplated in pretty much the same manner as nickel, silver and gold plate which means the clarinet will need a complete stripdown and rebuild - and like gold plating it's only applied thinly over silver. But you could specify having it applied much thicker.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-08-17 21:34
For plating, all the pads, corks and springs must be removed. If you want the posts plated, they'll need to be removed, too. This means you'll need the equivalent of an overhaul to get the instrument playing, so the cost will be substantial.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-08-17 22:55
Hey Chris,
Rhodium is a form of chrome plate. I have only experienced this on some pens so I don't have the same amount of time put in on it to test against the corrosiveness question, but, isn't this substance just as slippery or even more so than nickel? Since you seem to have the experience, I would bow to your input. I do know that gold falls in between the tackiness of silver and the slipperiness of nickel so for me (so far) it is an ideal medium.
I wanted to address the nail polish...............
DO NOT DO THIS !!!!!!!!
It makes the keys FAR too tacky to be of any use. Go ahead and try it on one key but keep the acetate handy !!!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2009-08-18 00:15
Perhaps only a surgeon would suggest it....but, I am surprised that no one mentioned gloves.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Claireinet
Date: 2009-08-18 02:50
I *think* that eating yogurt is supposed to help lower skin acidity. Could be worth a try.
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Author: Alfred
Date: 2009-08-18 02:58
Uhm, Alseg...Have you ever tried playing in gloves? There IS a reason that they have clarinets cut out the fingers to their gloves in marching bands...
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-08-18 03:26
I assumed he meant surgical gloves, which would seal on open holes better than skin does, but any sliding action on the keys would be difficult.
I have a piano tuner friend... A short time after touching any steel item, it has started to rust. His diet is pretty much normal.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2009-08-18 12:18
Here's another suggestion, after acknowledging that this is a very individual problem with a solution that would be very individual and perhaps ellusive for awhile:
My son went for some diet advice at the prompting from his wife (who else?). He was told that the yellow in his eyes was caused by too much acid in his system. So both of them are on a diet that eliminates coffee, sugar, and sodas and almost eliminates red meat - but adding lots of raw veggies, fresh juices with fish and chicken. His wife says that besides his feeling better and concentrating better on tasks, he's a nicer person to live with! His being my son, I know that these changes make us (myself included) feel and even think much better because we share much the same physical makeup. All of our kids, and myself, don't tolerate sugar and cow's milk at all.
Since everyone's physical makeup is so different your solution may be something quite different. It could be something as simple as drinking lots more pure water. But if you finally find an answer, I'll bet that you'll feel more of a change than simply not corroding your clarinet keys... you'll surprise yourself at feeling a lot better overall.
I remember a friend of our years ago who couldn't wear a watch - it would always stop keeping time. She had some kind of electric effect on her watches.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-08-18 16:01
I tried an oboe with rhodium plated keywork, and it has far more drag/grip compared to silver plate - so if you still feel silver is slippery, you could have rhodium plated onto your keywork.
I'm not sure if rhodium plating is easy to replate onto once it's been done from what I've heard, so do make inquiries before going ahead with it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2009-08-18 17:27
Alfred asked: "Uhm, Alseg...Have you ever tried playing in gloves? There IS a reason that they have clarinets cut out the fingers to their gloves in marching bands..."
Yes, surgeons gloves, regular, and latex-free. I spent over thirty years of my life operating in them. I had a pair on my hands while doing a little maintainance on a clarinet, and wore them while checking my results. I was able to play without any problem, but given my druthers, as in other (wink) situations, I would eschew them in favor of direct contact.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-08-18 19:25
"Rhodium is a form of chrome plate."
Not true. Rhodium is an element just as Chromium is. They are different.
Assuming that the keywork is actually brass as claimed then the silver/brass junction forms , in essence, a battery with your perspiration as the electrolyte.
Replating with a metal less "noble" than silver, as I see it, would be the only good solution and I don't think gold would resolve the problem. Stripping the silver and substitute plating with nickel would probably be a reasonable direction to follow.
I guess you are certain that the keys are brass rather than copper plated nickel silver?
Bob Draznik
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-08-18 20:07
I've been following the thread along and appreciate all the information - it will help me in the future whether on this specific instrument or another.
One key point that seems to fall by the wayside every once in a while is that this is a vintage instrument and the goal is to maintain the finish for as long as possible...not replace the finish (at least not yet - though the information provided in this forum will greatly help me in this area when/if the time comes to replate it - so any additional discussion in this area is still very welcomed too).
The base material involved is defintely brass. (I have many brass collectables and feel confident in identifying it). That would mean Bob's observation is correct - a person actually would be slowly removing the finish by electrolysis - I wasn't thinking of it that way - but that would be the driving force of the "eating" away of the metal; and would also explain why EVERY version of this model of clarinet that I've seen pictures of has suffered the same fate - regardless of owner or diet.
So, from what I've gathered, the only solution to "preserving" the finish would be to wear gloves (which I don't think I could do - it is an Albert system, and the gloves would probably add too much drag/friction); followed closely by the wiping/cleaning of the clarinet after each practice/performance. Then, when the time comes and I can't keep it original, then a plating of rhodium, nickel, or gold would be the logical solution.
Thanks again for all the information - this has been a very educational thread for me, and I appreciate all the various viewpoints.
Oh - and a note to Brenda (which would fit into Bob's explanation too)...I've never been able to wear any type of battery watch - something zaps them within a few weeks. I've lived life pretty much watch free....except now I'm dependent on that stupid little device called a cell phone (clock). 
Fuzzy
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-08-19 15:18
"Assuming that the keywork is actually brass as claimed then the silver/brass junction forms , in essence, a battery with your perspiration as the electrolyte."
Yes indeed. Galvanic corrosion has been reported as common for flute embouchure plates that have been gold plated.
BTW I've seen gold plated saxes with horrible-looking patches where the gold has been worn through to silver. Gold represents a high standard of finish, and having it go patchy is a look just as bad as a tuxedo with a shabby, crooked bow tie. IMO.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-08-19 18:02
HI FUZZY...email me for additional comment if you desire.
Bob Draznik
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-20 16:39
Paul mentioned that the keys become tacky from nail poish. I think you may get different results dependant on the brand you use and the envioronment you live in, but it works quite well for me.
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