 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: golfnclarinet
Date: 2009-08-13 18:10
The setup I like gives me 440 on the third space "C" but 22 cents flat on throat tones.
When I play clarinet in local community band, band director checks the pitch on C. But I think my throat tones are too much off.
Is shortening the barrel good idea?
My setup is R13(1974), Moba-Backun 66.5mm, Grabner's AW.
Thanks.
Post Edited (2009-08-13 18:10)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-08-13 18:33
I think you ought to try out various barrels and find which works best instead of having an existing one shortened.
What's the tuning like with the original Buffet barrel?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: golfnclarinet
Date: 2009-08-13 18:41
I tried few barrels but Moba-Backun gives me the best tone. I want to stay with this barrel.
I didn't really pay attention on stock barrel because my OPUS stock barrel(65mm) has been on the horn from the first day.
I remember I didn't like with Buffet stock barrel.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2009-08-13 19:03
Check on a tuner and report what happens when you play low F and E, Middle B, and clarion A and B above staff.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: golfnclarinet
Date: 2009-08-13 20:20
** Check on a tuner and report what happens when you play low F and E, Middle B, and clarion A and B above staff. **
I'll do it tonight
** Do you pull out at the middle joint? **
Not in this case.
But that's what I'm thinking with shorter barrel.
Thanks folks.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-08-13 22:12
Two solutions come to mind: 1) shave some cork off of the throat Ab key to let both keys open farther; 2) before that, it may be a good idea to remove those keys (it's easy) and make sure there isn't any buildup of dirt, gunk or whatever affecting the pitch of the tone holes.
Another more "invasive" solution--have a repair tech undercut the A4 & Ab4 tone holes to raise their respective pitchs.
In any case, since your C5 is a A=440 with your preferred 66.5 barrel, it is more normal to have the throat tones play too sharp--not flat. I play R13s (1960's) and Leblanc Concertos from the early 1990's and neither set of clarinets plays flat throat tones. Must be pads not opening far enough, dirt in the tone holes or a clarinet in need of accoustical work--undercutting, etc.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-08-14 00:07
If all your throat tones are flat then yes, your barrel is to long. A 66.5 is a pretty long barrel for most players, depending on the mouthpiece. I would suggest contacting Backun or seeing him at a festival or someplace and try some of his 66 or even 65s. He might trade you barrels, or he would be the one to shorten it for you. If they tune your throat tones well then you usually pull out the middle joint and perhaps even the bell a little bit and see if that makes any difference. Certainly pulling out the middle joint will lower all the notes below that joint. That's what I do with all my clarinets, Selmer and Buffets. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: golfnclarinet
Date: 2009-08-14 00:10
Alseg,
It plays
Low register : from lowest E(-3), F(-5), B(+3), E(-20), throat A(-10)
Clarion register : from low C(0),A(0),B(+5)
I have lip problem now and can't really play it right.
Above data could be bit different but for sure, E(-20), throat A(-10) is what I'm talking about.
Chris P,
Buffet stock barrel does almost same.
William,
Throat A,Bb plays sharp than E,open G.
Post Edited (2009-08-14 00:17)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-08-14 00:19
22 cents low for the throat keys is little much for the equipment you have.
This is an honest question, not meant to be insulting- have you tried this on other clarinets? Are you sure the problem is in the instrument?
The throat keys can sag more than the others if you are not supporting the breath enough.
Maybe you reeds are too soft?
Post Edited (2009-08-14 00:21)
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Author: golfnclarinet
Date: 2009-08-14 00:26
skygardener,
I had my son(in college) play this horn and got same result.
I play Gonzalez 3.5, GC Thick 3.5 and tried it with new reed.
I just tried with my son's F.O.F 3.75 reed but same.
I tried same reed/mpc/barrel on old Selmer Signet and it's ok.
So, I think it's my setup.
Post Edited (2009-08-14 00:39)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-08-14 01:18
I find the problem intriguing. Pretty much any clarinet I've played has a throat note area that is (if anything) "high." I agree with William that something is "a foot." Try also looking at those tone holes (take the keys off and look in the "A" tone hole, the "G#" tone hole and even the Register Key tone hole). If there is enough key height, chances are there is a load of crap (technical term) built up in one or more of these holes.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: golfnclarinet
Date: 2009-08-14 01:29
Paul, William
Open G, F and E are the worst.
Throat G#,A and Bb plays flat but not too bad.
But, I'll check.
Thanks.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-08-14 09:09
Some clarinets, for several different reasons, have what I call "tone hole bird nests" on some of the tone holes. The main ones to have this are the throat note tone holes, trill key tone holes, and a bit lower like the tone hole for G, sometimes E. Others could have it too but less likely.
This could happen from just dirt, or from a bad swab, etc. This is a circle of dirt at the bottom of the tone holes. It is impossible to see it without removing the keys. Even then, it might be impossbile to see without strong light (something like a leak light directly to the tone hole).
Some months ago a player came with the problem, and said the tone holes were cleaned several times with ear cleaners, and every time the problem came back after a while. That clarinet had the nests, and it took a lot more thorough cleaning to remove all the dirt. In addition she changed her swab which was a part of the problem. The problem hasn't come back since.
After making sure there is no dirt in the tone holes, check if the keys are not open enough. Maybe even try playing the notes with the keys off to make sure.
If you are not sure about trying those things yourself then maybe you have a good clarinet repairer locally and you can let them check?
If it's not any of that then check a shorter barrel. If you like the model you have then maybe try the same just shorter.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-08-14 12:46
I wonder if we are pursuing the wrong culprit here. If the non-throat-tone notes on your clarinet are in tune, probably your barrel is OK. I tend to think that the problem might be in your mouthpiece. A too-large chamber in your mouthpiece, common to many Chedeville-type mouthpieces, will cause the throat tones to be more affected than the remainder of the instrument. Those mouthpieces were originally designed to be played on a larger-bore clarinet than most of the current production (Buffet "Vintage" excepted). Harold Wright used to have the throat tone holes "excavated" by Hans Moennig to make his instruments playable in tune with his Henri Chedeville. Of course that destroyed the clarinets for use with most other mouthpieces!
There are presently plenty of excellent mouthpieces available with dimensions matching current production clarinets. My suggestion: try some alternatives before you do anything irreversible.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-08-14 13:24
Hi all -
Thought I would chime in. Larry, good suggestion, except he is playing on a mouthpiece made from the Zinner angled wall blank, which has the standard "A" core that thousands of clarinet players world-wide are using. Nothing outsized here at all.
However, this is an A=440 mouthpiece, as measured with a 66 mm barrel and a fairly stiff reed (3 1/2 to 4)
I would suspect that this combination would play flat with a 66.5 barrel. I would ask Morrie (or any responsible tech) to turn the barrel down to 66 and try again. Might want to go to 65.5 if there are embouchure development problems or use of softer reeds.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-08-14 17:18
Before you do it try a shorter barrel....65. or even less . Find a barrel that brings the throat register up to pitch and then see how that affects the rest of the instrument. email or talk to Morrie.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2009-08-14 17:19)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-08-14 20:51
We have ignored the interior dimensions of the barrel in question. That's the normal thing to do, as these dimensions are much harder to measure. Most of us don't understand the effects on tuning of various barrel bore sizes and shapes.
Many R13's benefit greatly from the use of a reverse taper barrel. Why?
To simplify, one of the benefits of a reverse taper is to reduce the 12ths in the upper joint. Many clarinets suffer from (as one example) a flat thumb F, but a sharp C (above the treble clef). This can be adjusted by the amount of taper in the barrel bore. Same for E to B, or D to A)
This is one of the first tests to make when testing a new barrel. If the 12ths in the upper joint don't improve, forget that particular barrel, no matter how good the tone might be. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Find barrels that tune BEST first, then after that , select from those the one that has the best tone.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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