 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-07-02 11:56
There's an interesting article at p. 50 of the new issue of The Clarinet (June 2009) about Joe Allard's teaching methods. John Cippola notes that Allard taught that the lower lip should be flat, like a shelf. As an exercise, "he put toothpicks in the sides of the mouth to keep the corners down and not curled up."
Is there an Allard student out there who could describe this in more detail? Did he just stick toothpicks in the corners of the mouth? Did they project out to the front or the sides, or up or down?
Many thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-07-02 14:04
Hi Ken....sorry , but I can't take this one without laughing. Would make a great Rube Goldberg cartoon......just like nailing down one's right foot to the floor to correct tapping. Inhaling a toothpick is a real catastrophe.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-07-02 19:01
I studied with him for one year on bass clarinet, never heard of that. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2009-07-02 22:33
Now, playing with ONE toothpick in the corner of the embouchure sounds like something you might see here in the back woods of Tennessee!
(I've yet to see that happen nor have I seen anyone try to play with Skoal stuffed inside the lower lip.)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-07-03 01:11
I studied with him also - no toothpick, however he was very particular not to tighten the corners too much to choke off the wings of the reed.
Gigliotti saw it the same way - should be able to wiggle the mouthpiece from side to side.
There are other (great) teachers who felt the exact opposite - tight corners and don't be able to wiggle the mouthpiece at all.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-07-03 17:03
Keith Stein taught McLane's theory that "the mouthpiece should rest in a bed of roses." He played double lip and could twist the mouthpiece almost 90 degrees and keep the same sound.
The Allard theory, as explained in the Clarinet article, is that the lower lip should be absolutely horizontal and inactive, and the contact with the reed should be controlled by the lower teeth. I'm not sure how this is possible, and I've never thought of doing it that way. When I look at my embouchure in a mirror, the reed sinks in and my lower lip wraps part-way up the side of the mouthpiece. That's the way everyone else's embouchure looks, too.
Kalmen Opperman taught me that the reed should always be slightly narrower than the lay of the mouthpiece. If the edges of the reed are outside the rails, the lower lip chokes off the vibration, but if the edges are even with or slightly inside the edges of the rails, then the vibration is fine. Also, Kal taught me that the slightly narrower reed lets you adjust it from side to side (by hundredths of an inch). There's always a position where the response improves dramatically.
Does anyone think of controlling the reed with their lower teeth?
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-07-03 20:24
When I play Eb clarinet using a Bb reed I get a richer tone because the reed is slightly wider, out side the rails, than the facing of the mouthpiece. I dislike that very bright, brittle tone some players get on the Eb. Although I don't do the same thing on regular or bass clarinet I'm not so sure that it would be a problem for everyone. Some like the reed to be the same width, some like it narrower, some may like it wider. Like everything clarinet wise, it's individual. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2009-07-03 20:25)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-07-04 01:25
"Does anyone think of controlling the reed with their lower teeth?"
This does remind me of my saxophone days. My teacher studied with Allard on sax.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-07-05 14:23
There's a lot of folklore out there about what exactly Allard taught that gets passed around, told, and re-told, almost like bible parables in Sunday school. I've been studying with someone who studied with, and/or KNOWS people who studied with, Allard, and the particular version of the "toothpick" method I've been taught has to do with inserting a pair of reeds, rather than toothpicks, in the corners of the mouth as you play a tone (on bass clarinet, in my particular case) the better to develop muscle memory for a flat-lower-lip embouchure, and to get used to hearing the sound an unconstricted embouchure produces. (If you're doing in on a bass standing on a peg, you can use your two pinkies instead in the corners of your mouth, which is what I prefer.)
The lower lip, in my understanding of the Allard folklore, should be like a "soft pat of butter" rather than firm, taut, and leather-like (if you prefer the "soft bed of rosepetals" analogy, from the thread above, by all means run with it!).
This may all sound completely nuts to some, even to former Allard students, and I take full responsibility herewith for any shading of meaning or misinterpretation I've applied. (Quoting a famous teacher's teaching, in any discipline, is like that old game of "telephone" we used to play--even a few removes from the source, the message can become something entirely different from the original.)
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Author: vrufino
Date: 2015-01-21 20:02
I studied clarinet, tenor sax, and some flute weekly with Mr. Allard from 1965 to 1974, beginning at his studio on 50th street above the Rexall across from Radio City, to his studio on at Carnegie Hall, and finally in his home in Tenafly. I went to him as a high school junior with many problems and never did he stick toothpicks in my mouth! However, that does not mean he did not do the same to others. He did teach me to bring down the corners of the top lip to seal against the bottom and to keep the fleshy part of the bottom lip away from the sides of the reed. An exercise he did with me to achieve this goal consisted of holding the clarinet bell between my knees while taking the index finger of each hand, and placing them at the side of each read and gently pulling away from the reed while blowing the open g. Air would leak until the top lip came down to make the seal. It took me several months to achieve this. His teaching was always prescriptive, giving a diagnosis to each problem.
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2015-01-22 00:15
Here is one use for a toothpick in music
Toothpick Maestro Gergiev - Rimsky-Korsakov: Capriccio Espagnol
from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Coa5hiNamdo
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2015-01-22 05:04
What's with Maestro Gergiev- he's replaced the clarinet opening solo with a violin!!??
Jerry
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-22 06:48
I think the idea behind Joe Allard's "toothpick trick" was to assure that the lower embouchure was flat and didn't curl or curve the reed across it's short dimension. I am not talking about pinching the reed and closing up the opening or facing, but warping the reed horizontally, which reduces it's free vibration.
As an analogy, hold up a sheet of 9" X 11" typing (Xerographic) paper on one short end, using your thumb on the top and the ring and middle finger on the bottom and you will see that the free end droops towards the floor. Now, introduce a slight curve in the paper and you will see that it can support itself for the entire length. So the paper effectively stiffens and looses flexibility. This is what happens when your curved embouchure warps or distorts the reed. It effectively stiffens the reed. The reed is just part of valve system, alternately sealing and opening the MP window, hundreds of times a second.
I hope this makes some sense.
On the subject of reed being narrower than the MP rails ... I had a teacher that was freshly back from the UK, where he lived and studied for about 7 years. When he returned, he was using a Vandoren A2 crystal with German cut reeds. The narrow reeds barely covered the window opening on the MP, and didn't give much wiggle room for lateral adjustments, but his sound was centered with a kind of hollow, haunting ping that I really liked. As a bonus, he cut his German reeds off and used them on his E-flat as well.
BTW, Stoltzman declared that he uses Vandoren White Master reeds with his Opperman MP. I don't know if this MP is more of a German design or French ... but this is interesting. Might account for some of his resonant and centered sound ...?
Tom
Post Edited (2015-01-22 07:29)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-01-22 07:47
Tom -
At least on my Opperman mouthpieces, Vandoren White Masters are too narrow to seal along the rails or the tip, particularly because Kal made his mouthpiece tips quite thin and cut the corners very tight. His mouthpiece design was French.
Kal said that Black Masters, which are a bit narrower than the standard, worked well, and I have often used them, but I've never heard of anyone using White Masters. Did you see Stoltzman's comment in writing?
Ken Shaw
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-22 08:18
I just tried a White Master reed the other day. A friend of mine ended up being given a few boxes of them by his teacher (why, I'm not sure) and was letting some of the clarinetists try them at orchestra practice. The reed just barely fit the rails my mouthpiece, but it didn't sound half bad... it wouldn't be my first choice though. I kept the reed so I could try it on Eb clarinet; haven't gotten around to that yet.
I've also tried Pilgerstorfer Exquisit reeds which are Austrian cut reeds (so probably similar to the Black Master reeds, though I've never tried those so I can't be sure.) They sounded very nice, but something about the resistance didn't quite feel right to me so I stopped using them. They had a thicker blank than any other reed I've ever tried - my VD Optimum ligature often had to be unscrewed most of the way for them to fit.
The Peter Leuthner reeds I'm using now are also fairly thin from side-to-side, but they're very playable and sound fantastic, so I don't think total rail coverage is a necessity.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-22 08:22
I read Stoltzman's comments in an interview ... unless I get white and black confused ... not unusual at my age.
I'll see if I can find the article.
Tom
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-22 08:37
Here is link to Stoltzman interview:
http://richardstoltzman.blogspot.com/
Tom
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-23 07:51
If you are needing a little better center and response, try sanding your reeds' width down a little and see if that helps, even if they don't overlap the side rails.
I use Legere Classic on a Vandoren M13, and sanding reeds about 1/3 to 1/2 mm narrower makes all the difference in the world. I was delighted when I made this discovery. The only downside is that you lose a little warmth and hold in the high notes, but all other performance characteristics seem to improve, IMHO, especially removing some of the "tubby sound" that the Legere sometimes have.
Tom
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-01-23 18:23
Once you get the reed narrower than the outside of the rails, you can jog it from side to side in microscopic increments. There's always a "sweet spot" where the resonance peaks. (Kal Opperman taught me this.)
Ken Shaw
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-01-23 20:27
Ditto on the side to side adjustments ... amazing how much difference it makes. And you only need to shift it a few thousandths of an inch!
We should have saved Opperman's DNA and cloned him ...
Tom
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