 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mozartklar
Date: 2009-06-22 02:57
Hello All,
I've got a pair of K11* mouthpieces on trial. Overall I think they are fantastic. They have great response, articulate well and they further accentuate my sound. I've only run into one stumbling block: the pitch.
Before I get into the pitch I noted something else when trying them out. When I used a V12 4, they were too resistant and therefore I had to go to a V12 3.5 which felt like it matched better. When playing some of the excerpts, such as Beethoven 4 2nd movement starting on F top line of the staff, everything going down the scale has been 10 to 20 cents sharp. When I played the same thing on my Vandoren M15 13 series, everything was right in the center of 440. After doing some slow scales and chromatics, the sharp tendancies remain. The only thing my M15 seems to have a leg up on is the pitch. I would hate to give up on such a great product however, I cannot play sharp either!
I've emailed Walter and am waiting for his thoughts on this. Do any of you have any experience with similar problems with this type of mouthpiece? I'm not sure if the two that were sent play more sharp than others or if they are just not a good fit for me.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you all for your advice!
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2009-06-22 04:06
Vandoren 13 series mouthpieces are designed to play 440 with stock barrels on Buffet clarinets, when fully warmed up. Zinners play higher. The simple solution is to pull out a lot. But if that makes you uncomfortable, longer barrels should solve the problem, allowing your scale to come down, in an even way so you will remain in tune with yourself.
The good thing about Vandoren 13 series mouthpieces is that they don't require long barrels, although I know of some who require shorter barrels to function in their ensembles.
To this end, don't forget that playing true to the tuner rarely has much to do with playing in tune in an ensemble. One must have flexibility to adjust to various issues: placement within the chord, volume, attack, intonational peculiarities of key ensemble members etc.
With a little experimentation, and the possible acquisition of a longer barrel, I expect your intonational comfort zone will be rediscovered, allowing you to continue to enjoy your new mouthpiece.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-06-22 12:37
I also recently acquired a K11* mpc after working with Walter at his home which is convenient to where I live.
After some time for adapting, I have also gone from my M30 to playing on Walter's mpc with Legere reeds. I am very happy with the result and agree with you on your analysis.
I have to agree with Brad. The Zinner blanks tend to play high relative to 440. I have encountered this problem on my Hawkins mpc as well.
I am going to get 67 and 66 barrels for my Bb and A respectively. I also pull out a good deal at the middle.
I had discussed this pitch issue with Walter when working with him and we even measured the M30 and the Zinner blank which came to be close to each other in length
So it must have to do more with the internal characteristics of the blank.
I am sure Brad has some more comments in this regard.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-06-22 14:55
Regarding the coment that Zinner's play sharp, I have noticed with the two Greg Smith models that I own--Cicero Kaspar & Chedeville 1* made from Zinner blanks--they tend to play lower in pitch than my Chicago Kaspar #14 or my Charles Bay (Chedeville blank). With either mouthpiece, I use a 66 barrel on my R13s and play "in tune" easily with most ensembles. With the Zinners, however, I must revert to a 65 or 64 barrel, depending on playing conditions--winter, summer, band, orchestra, etc. The length of all mouthpieces appear to be relatively the same, however, upon measuring the length of the inner chambers, my Gregs seem to be longer. I might add that Gregs mouthpieces play very well regarding tonal focus and response and will be my main pieces if my original Kaspar or Bay mouthpieces are lost.
But to the theme of this thread, my Zinners seem to play lower, not higher, in pitch. FWIW: vintage 1960's Buffet R13 A & Bb clars.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-06-22 15:33
William,
We must play very differently. I could never make a real Kaspar or a Bay work.
And I know that, for me, the mouthpieces I have tried using the Zinner blank had played on the high side. And pitch around Chicago tends to be 442.
Perhaps some makers such as Brad who may be lurking can join this discussion and provide better insight.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2009-06-22 16:42
From low to high intonation, I would rank the mouthpieces discussed here, in the following order: Vandoren 13 series, Zinner A blank, Modern Bay, vintage Bay, Frank L. Kaspar Chicago, Ann Arbor, Zinner E blank, Frank Kaspar Cicero. Vandoren 13 series mouthpieces typically work with standard length barrels, and Cicero Kaspars would frequently benefit by using barrels that are two mm longer than standard.
Kaspars were made from a variety of blanks but the vast majority of them were sourced from the post-war era Chedeville factory, (although I have seen some Chicagos that appeared to be handmade, and some Ciceros and Ann Arbors that were made from Riffault and Babbitt blanks as well). By far, the best Kaspar mouthpieces I have seen were fine pre-war era Chedeville blanks that Frank L. Kaspar acquired from Goldbeck during the transition of that company's ownership. These VERY rare pieces actually had both Kaspar and Goldbeck logos, as if Kaspar simply rebranded a finished Goldbeck mouthpiece upon his new ownership of the company.
The majority of Kaspar mouthpieces were made however from Chedeville blanks of the 60's. Although these Chedeville sourced mouthpieces were good, they were not nearly as good as what Chedeville produced during the golden era of the pre-war period. Although Kaspar mouthpiece blanks varied a great deal in dimension, the rather large exit bore .592-.596" associated with a rather short bore length and a rather conical taper (as compared to older Chedevilles of the pre-war era) was a fairly consistent trait of the common Kaspar. (I should mention that many Ann Arbor and some Chicago Kaspar mouthpieces were made with longer bores that sometimes didn't flare to a large exit dimension).
Kaspar's rather conical bore contour, combined with a shorter length bore created two problems: wide twelfths, and higher intonational characteristics. Moennig tapered barrels can to a slight degree help narrow the twelfths, and when the barrels are made long, they can also help the overall sharpness. This trademark bore, IMO didn't have much to do with Kaspar's design wishes, but it was simply what Chedeville was producing at the time, and Kaspar simply used what was available to him. Some believe Kaspar did this bore shape decidedly to accommodate the commonly used Selmer clarinet of the day, but I do not believe this to be the case. One can witness an exact duplicate of the commonly available Frank Kaspar Cicero mouthpiece by acquiring an Evette Schaeffer mouthpiece and measuring the bore. If it is the same blank as the one Kaspar used, it will have the exact same dimension that so many Kaspar mouthpieces had. Perhaps on sympathetic judgment, Kaspar kept the bore true to its factory designation, to accommodate his clientele, but it is my judgment that Kaspar didn't actually ream those mouthpieces for a purpose. Frank L. Kaspar did however ream mouthpieces...frequently.
I have seen some Bay mouthpieces that were also made from similar (Evette Schaeffer) Chedeville blanks, that also shared similar intonational characteristics to many original Kaspar Cicero mouthpieces. Bay did go so far as to ream his Ithaca batch of Chedeville blanks to help improve those problem areas and also voiced them to play to his ideal, but generally, Bay mouthpieces (even those made from his more recent design) play higher than Zinner mouthpieces.
Sorry I didn't have time to write a short email.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: mozartklar
Date: 2009-06-25 02:26
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for your valued input. I think at this point, I'm going to return both mps to Walter and see what he and I can come up with. If he sends me another set that work with me then we'll be in good shape.
Best,
Peter
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Author: rossbu
Date: 2009-06-25 12:10
OK, how does this fit with the intonation characteristics of your typical R13 - 3 space c sharpness, etc. What is the recommended mouthpiece, barrel combination to gain the best intonation from a recent R13 without pulling the middle joint excessively, etc.
Burt
bross141@comcast.net
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-07-14 22:21
This thread appeared while I was out of the country, so I just now discovered it. I still thought it worthwhile to make a few comments.
Several people have mentioned that they believe that Zinner blanks (the A core, not the E core) play sharp.
I have had an equal number of people write to me over the years that they wished the mouthpieces played flat.
It is an interesting fact that using the same equipment, even very accomplished players can have different pitch levels, I have seen this in my studio/workshop several times.
I worked with one very prominent player, who recently won an audition in a major orchestra, who had to have a 67 mm barrel on his clarinets in order to get down to an acceptable pitch level. When I played on his setup, with the 67 mm barrel, his mouthpiece, and clarinet, I was quite flat.
I play on my own mouthpieces, and I find that when I play on my Zinner based K11 or K11*, I was right at A 440 with a 66 mm barrel. If I need to play at 442, I had to use my 65 mm barrel.
When I was working with Dileep, it was obvious that he was pitched high than I, using exactly the same mouthpiece.
I do agree that the Zinner blanks are pitched higher than the Vandoren 13 series. But I have found I cannot play on the 13 series without resorting to a shorter barrel, even at 440.
So, there is obviously more going on here than the bore/chamber of the mouthpiece and the length/shape of the barrel when determining general pitch level.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-07-14 23:17
Well I can agree on that the AW personal that I have plays little bit higher in pitch than my Kaspar 14 that I also have. On my backup Bb R-13 Prestige clarinet I need a 665 mm barrel to tune to 442Hz but on my Bb Festival I need a 666mm barrel to play at 442Hz and I'm at tune with the AW and maybe need to pull out a 0,3-0,5 mm but with the Kaspar 14 I need to be well warmed up(after 3-5 minutes of playing) to tune to 442Hz with a 666mm barrel and no need to pull out what so ever.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-07-15 00:22
By the way, I am playing Walter's mpc exclusively since visiting him. It is definitely a step up for me (as an individual) from my Hawkins and VD M30.
I agree with Walter. The high pitch can most likely be counteracted with a 67mm barrel. And I can pull out as well. And don't forget that in Chicago, we have to deal with very severe winters where, as a freelancer, we do not always have the luxury of warming up correctly.
As a player, I do think Walter has a nice product and for those of you that have yet to try his stuff, it is well worth the effort.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-07-15 01:00
I mispoke above. The sentence - "I have had an equal number of people write to me over the years that they wished the mouthpieces played flat." - makes no sense in context.
What I meant to say was that people wrote and said they liked the mouthpiece, but it played too flat.
Sorry, had two thoughts in my mind at the same time.
I agree with Dileep. You need to be prepared for a variety of tuning situations, and have the flexibility to meet them.
Walter
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