 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DTrinh09
Date: 2009-04-11 22:23
I remember reading somewhere (perhaps on this board, but the Search feature didn't bring up what I wanted) that replacing the register key insert/hole with a different one (I think the hole had a larger diameter) that protruded out a little would improve the dreaded throat tones, especially the Bb. Unfortunately, I don't recall where I stumbled across it.. if anyone knows what I'm talking about or where I can find it, please reply!
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2009-04-11 23:36
I tried this a few years ago. Abe Galper was still with us then.
I am apparently the only person that wasn't happy with it. While it did improve the B-flat, I found the sound of the whoosh of air exiting the register vent annoying. I attribute this to the relatively sharp corners inside the vent.
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-12 00:12
I've had very good luck with it - haven't found that whooshing sound at all and it has improved the Bb as well as intonation a bit on that and the surrounding notes. Mostly just cleared up stuffiness without "breaking" something else. Don't know if the age if the R-13 in question makes a difference. Mine is from 1962. It's my understanding that it isn't necessarily designed for instruments other than R-13's. Is that right David?
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Author: DTrinh09
Date: 2009-04-12 00:59
Thanks--that's exactly what I was looking for. However, is it strictly for R13s? I have an E11 so at least they're both from Buffet.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-04-12 01:01
I'm the register key guy, and by far the orders I have had really liked it a LOT.
I've worked with Abe Galper on this for the past 10 years and last year took it over completely. In that time I haven't had any return requests.
The users love it (feedback). As anything else, it isn't for everyone.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-04-12 01:10
Yes, only for R13s and for a while was only pre 300k serial numbers, but I had them shaped at Marinellis to fit post 300k (2 designs).
I wouldn't say to get one as GAS, but if the instrument needs one, it can make it feel really good in the upper register.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DTrinh09
Date: 2009-04-12 02:18
Haha, how could something simple cost $165? :P
How much different are the required lengths for the Galper key for the R13 vs. E11? Can the original register key work with a Galper tube installed? Can the tube still be installed on the E11?
Man, if register tubes hinder clarinets so much, why don't the manufacturers just make them right in the first place?
:(
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-12 07:34
>> why don't the manufacturers just make them right in the first place? <<
I wish the register vent was the worst thing on every instrument I see. What about their awful linkage designs? What about using of terrible materials for adjustment? Falling corks, unlevel/chipped tone holes, etc. etc. Not talking about any specific company but in general these are all things you see on clarinets (and other instruments).
Actually, I don't find that the register tube is a problem on most clarinets.
BTW (as most probably already know) the register vent is a compromise. different companies choose different compromises, or even the same company on different models. This is an example http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=839&t=839
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Author: DTrinh09
Date: 2009-04-12 07:54
clarnibass,
What else could be causing the stuffy throat Bb? The alternate fingering with the trill key makes it sound great. Are there detriments to getting a wider or longer vent? What are the compromises?
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-12 09:06
"Falling corks"
I had to read that twice. Ahem.
The problem with the throat B flat since the dawn of time (at least, since the invention of the clarinet) was that one of the holes also has to act as the register key and that's a much more important job! :-)
That's obviously not the case with the trill key fingering.
There's at least one repairer (Franck Denize at L'Olifant in Paris) who does a thing called 'travail de résonance' - that's where he sharpens the edge of the sleeve and tweaks its angle until it's sitting in just the right spot. He also bevels the edges of the register key cork. Frees up a heck of a lot of things. I don't know who else does this trick though. I play Festivals so the trick in itself isn't R13-exclusive.
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Author: DTrinh09
Date: 2009-04-12 09:51
Oliver,
How come the register key can't also produce the Bb well like the trill key? And Festivals don't suffer from the register key/vent problem?
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-12 17:01
"How come the register key can't also produce the Bb well like the trill key?"
As far as I can tell the reason the register key doesn't make such a good Bb key is because it's so small and so far up the tube - if it were larger and further down the tube, it would be where the Bb trill key is! And then it wouldn't make much of a register key - try using the Bb trill key instead of the register key to see why. :-)
Maybe it's worth mentioning that the chalumeau has two keys directly opposite each other - one of the things that differentiates it from the early clarinet is that the clarinet has the thumb key further up the tube. The chalumeau is played almost exclusively in the low register (some pieces for it use one or two overblown notes but not more); the early clarinet is played almost exclusively in the high register. If you play the 'throat notes' on a chalumeau and compare them with the throat notes on a Baroque clarinet you'll see that the Bb/register compromise has been with us since at least about 1700!
"And Festivals don't suffer from the register key/vent problem?"
Indeed they do - as does every clarinet I've ever seen that didn't have some kind of mechanism to open a register-key sized hole when using it as a register key and a Bb-key sized hole when playing Bb... but clarinettists in general don't seem to go for such devices. I don't know why...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-04-12 18:12
I'm pretty sure that the E-11 has a "screw in" register tube. That's completely different than the Galper Tube which just inserts, not screws in.
I just looked at an old E-11 and the register tube has what looks like a nut shaped outside so more verifies my memory.
Any repair techs out there that can verify that?
(I'm 100% player, not a technichan)
Your tube could even have debris in it that affects it.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-04-12 18:52
It is very common for players to change the register key on an A clarinet to eliminate the common grunt on the high A and B. As far as the throat tone Bb it depends on many factors. The register key can be a problem but so can other factors. When I've had a student change the tube I would send them to a tech that has several different sizes and bores and have them try them until they find one that makes an improvement. If not, then we have to find another way to cure what ever problem they were having. Tubes come in different lengths and bore sizes and some techs can make adjustment to the tube if they know what the're doing. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: DTrinh09
Date: 2009-04-12 21:27
"Look up resonance fingerings"
I have used them but they don't compare to what the Bb trill key can do.
"...And then it wouldn't make much of a register key - try using the Bb trill key instead of the register key to see why. :-)"
If that's the case, what kind of change are we getting with the Galper or any other register modification?
"Your tube could even have debris in it that affects it."
I've removed the key and cleaned out the tube but it made no difference, so I don't think that's the issue...
On the Galper Register tube/key website, it says "Uneven resistance for the Bb Buffet Clarinet is now a thing of the past." Is this to say that this only applies to professional model Buffets? =/
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-04-13 00:01
"On the Galper Register tube/key website, it says "Uneven resistance for the Bb Buffet Clarinet is now a thing of the past." Is this to say that this only applies to professional model Buffets?"
I have checked out David's site, and the modification is exclusively for R13 Bb Buffet instruments. As mentioned above, other manufacturers (and even other Buffet models) will ahve different bores, different register key placement, and different tube shapes, lengths and diameters. Therefore, each fix would be fairly unique to a specific design of clarinet.
Jeff
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-13 08:25
" "...And then it wouldn't make much of a register key - try using the Bb trill key instead of the register key to see why. :-)"
If that's the case, what kind of change are we getting with the Galper or any other register modification?"
...whatever you do (unless you switch to a clarinet with one of those automatic throat Bb mechanisms - and they are out there, and might be right for you although not for me) you'll have a different angle on the compromise, that's all. I'm sure the Galper tube won't stop the register key working but I'd be very surprised if it could deliver a Bb as open as the trill key one. (Or can it? I'm sure someone will tell us if so.)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-04-13 11:46
DTrinh09 wrote:
>> clarnibass,
>> What else could be causing the stuffy throat Bb? The alternate
>> fingering with the trill key makes it sound great. Are there detriments
>> to getting a wider or longer vent? What are the compromises?
What else... I'm not sure what you mean, other than what? It is definitely the register/Bb vent causing it. Re different vents, it depends on the instrument, and sometimes you just have to experiment. What works on one clarinet might not work another.... I know because I have tried the same vent on different clarinets.
Some people have found a specific solution (or rather an improvement) to a sepcific problem on a specific model, but you never know.... for example I actually know more people who don't have a problem with upper clarion "grunt" on Buffet A clarinets than people who do.
So if you really want to see if there is an improvement, you should find someone who is (preferably) experienced and is willing to experiment, assuming you are willing to pay for all those experiments, which might not be very cheap..... depending on what exactly is needed.
But realize that even then, you might not find a better compromise that you, overall, prefer over what you have now. Other compromises might be difference in intonation or response in notes that use the register key. Which ones and how depends on the clarinet and what changes exactly are done with the register vent.
oliver sudden worte:
>> I had to read that twice. Ahem.
I don't understand what you mean. What is not clear? All I meant was that there are many things many clarinet makers don't get "right".
Gary Van Cott wrote:
>> While it did improve the B-flat, I found the sound of the whoosh of
>> air exiting the register vent annoying. I attribute this to the relatively
>> sharp corners inside the vent
It would only take seconds, or at most maybe minutes, to remove that sharp edge. Actually you can see that one post mentions a repairer who especially makes the edge sharper!
oliver sudden wrote:
>> Indeed they do - as does every clarinet I've ever seen that didn't
>> have some kind of mechanism to open a register-key sized hole when
>> using it as a register key and a Bb-key sized hole when playing Bb...
Sure, but how much worse the regular fingering is depend on the instrument, and can vary a lot. I recently tried a clarinet that was (otherwise) excellent, but with an awful throat Bb. So bad that I would never even buying it only for that reason. However I've tried clarinets where the throat Bb was so good, almost as good as the side Bb, with really just a minimal difference (and not because the side Bb wasn't good).
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-04-13 12:22
Oliver Wrote:
"...whatever you do (unless you switch to a clarinet with one of those automatic throat Bb mechanisms - and they are out there, and might be right for you although not for me) you'll have a different angle on the compromise, that's all. I'm sure the Galper tube won't stop the register key working but I'd be very surprised if it could deliver a Bb as open as the trill key one. (Or can it? I'm sure someone will tell us if so.)"
I would say the result is that the Bb is "almost" as open as the trill key one. Certainly a vast improvement. I still use the trill key at times but I no longer find myself drawn to that fingering at times when it's otherwise problematic. I believe I get some improvement in the venting for some of the altisimo range. If that's all in my head that's alright too.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-04-13 12:42
">> I had to read that twice. Ahem.
I don't understand what you mean. What is not clear? All I meant was that there are many things many clarinet makers don't get "right"."
Sorry, what you wrote is indeed completely clear. Just that when my eyes saw 'falling corks' my juvenile brain substituted something else that it would be a pity to have to blame a clarinet maker for. ;-)
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