 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-06 07:51
I want your opinions on this.
A local sax player bought a Couesnon Monopole clarinet several years back which isn't in particularly great working condition (dodgy overhaul) but is sound otherwise and the wood is flawless.
He's now thinking of buying himself a new wooden clarinet of intermediate quality (E11/YCL-450/etc.) as he thinks the Monopole isn't worth doing anything with as he's never heard of them. He hasn't played clarinet much if at all, but is considering taking it more seriously.
Now, is he better off buying a mid-priced mediocre quality wooden clarinet that could have its limitations, or would he be better off spending much less in having the Monopole fully restored?
So the choices are buy new, or restore. Which would you do?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-06 10:09
Yeah I know there are other posts about them, but I want this particular question answered.
If you had the choice, what would YOU do?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-03-06 10:13)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-03-06 11:11
Chris P wrote:
> If you had the choice, what would YOU do?
Restore.
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-03-06 11:29
My vote to the Couesnon, because if properly overhauled, the result is a clarinet of R-13 quality.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-03-06 11:56
I have 2
I no longer play my Leblanc Opus
I would restore for the sound. Mechanically he will probably need to be slightly more careful with putting it together and taking it apart as the keys can be a bit soft.
Ask on SOTW, and maybe Steve Howard will comment, as he is currently overhauling my second, slightly older, one. He gives honest opinions.
And if he doesn't want it, buy it off him, or even better, I would. Because they are not widely known, they do not fetch much money, so resale value is low in a state that requires overhaul - eg £100 to £200. But they are ridiculously undervalued both financially and by reputation
Chris
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-03-06 12:22
Perhaps I should temper my previous enthusiasm with suggesting that if blowing it, it appears to have a good core sound, then it would add to the evidence of saying repair it.
Couesnon Monopoles have changed many times. My youngest one is early 1960s. My older one is early 1950s, and has rollers on RH little finger keys. I think I remember they had different bore dimensions but can't remember which was larger. They have different logos. I have seen old ones with wraparound register keys.
I shouldn't make a sweeping generalisation suggesting all are good, but I must say, of the surviving ones that are out in the wild being played, you don't hear very much bad about them.
some info with photos of my instruments on Steve's web site here.
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-06 12:32
He bought it for £90 in 'overhauled' condition (I can tell exactly who did the botch job on it by their poor quality work). I tried to justify that he could never get anything of that quality brand new at the price he paid for it plus the cost of a complete rebuild. The best he can get brand new for roughly the same cost is a B12 or YCL-250, and double that for an E11 or YCL-450.
His last sax was a Cigar Cutter tenor and recently he's been regularly playing an early '60s MkVI - but he also bought a new Yanagisawa T992 and is still deciding which tenor he likes better and which one he's prepared to let go.
Although I previously mentioned it here http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=252126&t=215423, he is about to make a decision on its future and I hope he opts for the right choice - to rebuild - as I reckon it's worth the time, effort and cost to get it playing as it should.
And if most of you agree that having it rebuilt is the best choice, then that'll only reinforce what I mentioned to him at last night's rehearsal. The serial number 129xx dates it to the very late '40s to early '50s going by Steve Sklar's site.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-03-06 12:46)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-06 13:35
But not everyone wants Buffets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2009-03-06 13:42
Send the Monopole to me and buy an E-11. I'll even give you the £90. Seriously, overhaul it. My Monopole is '53 vintage (overhauled by Dave S.) and I'm very happy with it. It has no rollers and 7 rings, but no forked Bb, which is a little strange. It's an excellent player and I have gotten several complements on its sound. It compares favorably with similar vintage professional Leblancs and Buffets.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2009-03-06 17:40
I've got an old Couesnon Monopole Conservatoires that needs some work doing to it, well about half the springs replacing, adjusting pad heights etc, but the sound is quite amazing.
So if he can get it correctly overhauled, I reckon it's a no-brainer!
Steve
PS Hope this isn't breaking any rules, but Chris, can you please - privately - recommend somewhere I could send my clarinet for overhaul in southern England, preferably London or up as far as Cambs/Peterbro area. I'll be over in late May and could pick it up then. I can do some things myself - or at least I kid myself that I can, so I'd rather this one was overhauled correctly!! ;-)
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2009-03-06 20:35
i would be very, very, hesitant about doing it, getting a couesnon overhauled, again. after keeping and occasionally playing it for a couple of years, i sold it for less than the cost of the overhaul.
despite the high quality of the job that gordon did, it did not hold up well when compared with the professional models by any of the 4 major manufacturers. i have not regretted selling it
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: Bill
Date: 2009-03-07 23:10
Isn't this one of the clarinet brands that Vytas Krass says is in his "top 10" (or something). Vytas, if I am quoting you incorrectly I am confident you will clarify
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-03-08 00:12
Chris P: my vote based on owning a vintage Couesnon, would be to restore. However maybe Dave Spiegelthal can be prevailed upon to give his 10 cents as I believe he has not only restored one but also owned and played one. I remember he commented that there were some intonation issues but everything else was good
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-03-08 13:19
Chris,
If it's possible, could you please get the CM's serial number from your friend and post it.
I have 2 CM's and they have different performance characteristics. The first one I acquired, I was able to confirm its production date thanks to some folks on the form, was made in 1960. Then, the second (which I acquired from Vytas on ebay) was made at some point in the 1970's. I have not been able to confirm its exact date.
I'd describe the later CM as being more Buffet-like. It has a .574 bore. Whereas, the 1960 model has close to a .580 bore. I especially love the 1970's CM. It has a stunningly beautiful sound, with an exceptional amount of ring, and superb projection. Its intonation is fine. I use it as my performance clarinet and my 1960 CM as a back up. The 1960 model is a fine clarinet. However, the 70's model gives me more ring and projection.
If one's object is to have a fine clarinet, my vote is to restore the CM. But, if you're worried about its value then it can be a problem. Personnally, I'm so much into my CM that I plan to play it for the rest of my life and I don't care about its market value.
Roger
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-03-08 14:49
Roger
Chris P gave more information in a previous thread, cited by him in a post above
It is 129xx
Chris J
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-03-08 15:36
Chiris,
Oops...sorry, I missed that. Yes, 129xx is older than my 1960 285xx model.
Older CMs can be decent clarinets. Given the older age of this clarinet, if I was in your friend's shoes I'd take the clarinet to a really good clarinet repair tech, ask him to give it a check over, and make sure there is nothing significantly wrong with it....such as a warped bore. If the clarinet is in good condition and only needs an overhaul, then (again if it was me) I'd have the CM restored rather then spending a larger amount of money to get a new intermediate-level clarinet. There is no way that the quality of wood in a new clarinet -- even pro-level models -- will compare with the high quality old wood used in CMs. Every time my repair tech sees my CMs he raves about the quality of the wood and the craftsmanship. If the repair tech does a good job on the restoration, it's my bet that your friend will have a fine clarinet.
Roger
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-08 16:28
I reckon so - as he wants to learn clarinet (he'll be an adult learner) and also to save money, it seems far more logical and economical to have this one restored rather than buying a student model, and provided it plays well he shouldn't need to get anything better for years to come.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-03-08 17:55
Chris,
One thing that helped to bring my CM to life is using a Kaspar-style mouthpiece. I've found it to be a superb mouthpiece-instrument match. On my 70's CM I use a Walter Grabner K14 and on my 1960 model I found a K13 to be a better match for its bore. This set up has a stunningly beautiful sound. I'm often asked if I play a R-13 and I explain that it's a CM. None of the inquirers have heard of a CM. But, they like the quality of sound I get from it.
It's my expectation that when your friend progresses to the point where he's able to find a mouthpiece that works for him like a Grabner Kaspar-style piece works for me that he'll be happy with his CM for a very long time.
Roger
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2009-03-08 19:53
Chris,
is your customer limiting his price (even though he has a mk VI and 992 !?!?)
I'd either get the Couesnon restored or go for the 450.
Either way, if he went with a used 450 he may end up spending even more $$ getting it up to spec.
So, personally, I'd opt for the Couesnon. but if the 450 was play tested and 100% I might opt for it depending upon price.
as to the selling cost less than the overhaul price, that is normally the case unless it is a ridiculously cheap overhaul - which seem to get overhauled again after being sold.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-08 20:46
As he doesn't know anything about this Couesnon, he's wondering if it's worth spending the money on having it done up if it or buying a new student level clarinet. He's not limiting his price - just limiting the amount of instruments he has.
I don't think his wife is too pleased with him already owning two tenor saxes, so buying a new clarinet while he's already got the Couesnon might just cause a bit of trouble.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-03-08 20:47)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-03-08 20:49
Does it seal well enough to at least have an idea of its potential?
Have you tried it out at all?
Chris
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2009-03-08 21:17
-- "I don't think his wife is too pleased with him already owning two tenor saxes, so buying a new clarinet while he's already got the Couesnon might just cause a bit of trouble." --
Been there, done it, got the teashirt etc.
The excuses I used when I started collecting clarinets have been lost in the mists of time. After a while, my wife gave in moaning about "those bloody flutes".
As long as I don't get the alto sax out, she's fine about it. If I do try and play the old french flugel, she assumes it's our eldest son practising his trumpet.
And oboes are great! They look just like clarinets! ;-)
Steve
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