 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: thedean
Date: 2009-02-26 21:22
Hi Everyone,
I'm from Australia, Melbourne in fact, and recently we have been having some very extreme heat waves, as you might have seen on your news where ever you are. As well as the extreme heat we get the big change to colder weather the next day so the extremes are messing up my clarinet.
My clarinet seems to have become very dry and the wood is actually a lighter colour than i remember.
I have once been TOLD how to oil my clarinet however not shown. Could someone please direct me to somewhere i can possibly find information about this. Or perhaps give me a really detailed outline on how to oil my clarinet. I don't want to do it wrong and then have to send my clarinet away, as my University course starts next week.
Also, some good bore oil product information would also been great.
Thanks everyone
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-02-26 21:30
I know that there has been much debate over the question of oiling. Several months ago, I happened to meet a Buffet sales rep. I asked him the question that had long been on my mind--to oil or not to oil? His response was immediate--don't. Perhaps other manufacturers have different recommendations.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-02-26 22:37
I hardly think a sales rep (Buffet or anyone) is a fount of knowledge on this subject.
Yes there are two diverse schools of thought - Oil versus not oil.
I have never seen any convincing evidence to support non-oiling.
I have had thousands of instruments through my workshop and have seen much evidence over many years of the results of warped and swollen bores due to excessive water absorbtion especially at the top end of the top joint.
I have been oiling my personal instruments for over 50 years with no ill effect but with a still true and sound bore surfaces and dimensions.
Once the instruments are mature they normally don't need much oil and experience shows you how much.
Whenever I've had a new instrument I have oiled it regularly in the first year then gradually tapering off the frequency over time.
Listen to the other side then make your own decision.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-02-26 22:51
How do you detect warped and swollen bores? I don't understand where or with what kind of tools a polycylindrical bore would be measured.
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-02-26 23:33
Norman Smale wrote:
> I have had thousands of instruments through my workshop and
> have seen much evidence over many years of the results of
> warped and swollen bores due to excessive water absorbtion
> especially at the top end of the top joint.
Buffet has has hundreds of thousands of clarinets leave their factory and they recommend not oiling their new clarinets.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2009-02-26 23:56
Mark,
We have been a Buffet dealer since 1960 and the response to the question of oil or not to oil changes depending on who is in charge that week.
Francois Kloc is the man in charge right now and he's fairly adamant about not oiling, he feels it's not necessary since the wood is oiled at the factory. I have met with Francois and found him to be a very knowledgeable rep for the company and his involvement with Buffet has raised the company quality and respect in every way. This is one subject where we disagree.
I have done quite a bit of experimenting in my shop over the past 40 years and found oiling to be a benefit to the wood when done properly. I feel oiled wood is more stable, it allows spit to run through the bore and not sit around digesting the wood fibers, plus it keeps the wood vibrant and healthy (if I can use that word).
There are quite a few threads that talk about oiling and I would side mostly with repair techs that see a large number of clarinets each month, I don't know many salesmen that also repair. One person that has also done a great deal of experimenting is Larry Naylor, he has a webpage as well and most of his results are posted there to read.
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Author: thedean
Date: 2009-02-27 00:10
I have had it professionally oiled before, it is a Buffet BC20.
It was so dry last time that it was nearly brown rather than black, obviously not a good sign, but i hadn't played it for a while.
When I got it back freshly padded and oiled! WOW! I was absolutely amazed.. my sound was so much fuller and rounded, it was amazing.
I'm definately pro-oiling. I would go with Techs as well, not sales reps.
What oil should I use to oil it? Is there a specific brand you tech/repair guys use i should invest in?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-02-27 00:23
sbrodt54 wrote:
> ledgeable rep for the company and
> his involvement with Buffet has raised the company quality and
> respect in every way. This is one subject where we disagree.
I understand that. I was pointing out a fact - that Buffet currently does not recommend oiling their new clarinets.
Francois is also a master repairman.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2009-02-27 00:26
Doctor's Products - 'bore doctor'
http://www.doctorsprod.com
his grend-oil is great stuff too - i met him and bought a bottle recently at TMEA in San Antonio.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-02-27 01:23
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived Bore Doctor and Genuine Grenadilla oil)
The debate will rage as to oil or not oil but I must say that there are over 200 technicians - many master technicians - from all over the world that routinely buy large quantities of oil from me for their customer's instruments. Perhaps there are an equal number out there that do not oil their customer's instruments - hard for me to tell!
There is no doubt that instruments can become dried out and loose oil and moisture and change dimensions in the process. Plant derived oils buffer water loss as well as excess water absorption. Some pieces of wood loose oil and moisture to a greater extent than others to be sure. It just makes sense to me if the oil used to impregnate the wood at the factory helps maintain stability in the wood that when oil is lost that it should be replaced and in the process help maintain a proper moisture balance in the wood. Wood with oil loss will loose moisture more quickly than wood with the proper oil content. Oil is lost from the wood by evaporation and also washed away from the bore by combining with the water (plant oils do combine with water) put through the bore while playing.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-02-27 02:01
Several of the repairman I've used over the years have disagreed on to oil or not to oil. If you do obviously use "bore" oil and cover the closed pads with thick paper so they don't absorb the oil. Simply put some oil on a swab and pull it through several times. I've never oiled my 3 Buffet clarinets, all at least forty years old now, or my Selmer, three years old and never had a crack in any of them.
A better idea is to keep a medium large dampit in your case and keep it damp. Also, get a humidifier for you room and keep the humidity as close to 50 as you can. Better for your clarinet, you reeds and your health, not to mention the furniture and any pet you may have. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2009-02-27 02:02
There are pro-oil and anti-oil schools. And there are three possibilties: oil hurts, oil does nothing, or oil helps.
If oiling the instrument hurt it, there would be a lot of people complaining, which there are not. So lets disregard this possibility.
If oiling did nothing, there would be just as many people with oily blown-out instruments as non-oily. So far as Buffet goes, do they have more repeat customers from people who oil their bores or people who don't? Bet they don't keep stats on this. Nota bene you academes: this is a good topic for a masters thesis research project. Without such research, we have no solid reason to do anything, and everybody's comments are hokum, tempered with rumor. Especially my comments.
If oiling helps, well then people who do it will also continue to do so. So, ley me ask, amongst those dear readers of this board who oil their instruments regularly, can you support that this prolongs the life of your instrument?
My own feeling is that the mechanics are much the same for your wooden instrument as they are for cane reeds, as described by Ben Armato and others. Your saliva has a lot of stuff in it which will solidify, building up in untreated wood, changing its ability to contract back to its original dimensions upon drying. Oil can stop saliva deposition, and keep the wood in a similar condition to when it was manufactured. On the other hand, the oil must have some effect. Uh, shouldn't it? It's wrote here somewhere...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-02-27 02:24
Ralph Katz wrote:
> If oiling the instrument hurt it, there would be a lot of
> people complaining, which there are not.
No, the largest number of people complaining about cracking are those who DO oil their clarinets ... but that's not statistically relevant, anyway.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-02-27 02:25
<<the mechanics are much the same for your wooden instrument as they are for cane reeds, as described by Ben Armato and others. Your saliva has a lot of stuff in it which will solidify, building up in untreated wood, changing its ability to contract back to its original dimensions upon drying.>>
I don't think you can draw any solid parallel in this area between cane, which is very porous and not treated with oil - in fact is deliberately dried out during the manufacturing process - and the very dense woods used to make clarinets, which *are* saturated with oil during the process of manufacturing clarinets.
Karl
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-02-27 02:35
Just anecdotal evidence on my part, but I have been maintaining my personal instruments since the early 1970s and have oiled the bores of the grenadilla instruments on a regular basis. I do not pretend to be an expert, but I have found that I like best the results I have obtained with Doc Henderson's GreanadOil. The wood just seems to react better and looks better to me for a longer period of time after I oil it with this great product.
To be fair, I have received a comment from a well-respected symphony clarinetist who told me that she had TWO Buffet Prestige basses crack shortly after oiling them, but I don't know all the particulars of her case, and whether the oil was the culprit is beyond any way I have to discern. For my soprano instruments, oiling has been beneficial.
Disclaimer: I am jsut a satisfied customer; I have no connection with Doc Henderson other than having bought various products from him, and receive no compensation from anybody! As if anyone would actually pay me!
Jeff
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-02-27 03:15
So Mark - where do you get your statistics that the largest number of people complaining about cracked instruments do indeed oil them? If so, what oil were they using - clear mineral oil sold by some major manufacturers or a plant derived oil?
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-02-27 03:31
L. Omar Henderson wrote:
> So Mark - where do you get your statistics that the largest
> number of people complaining about cracked instruments do
> indeed oil them?
I of course said that the number wasn't statistically relevant ... but, I've read all 295,688 posts so far, and I can assure you and everyone else that of all the cracks that have been reported here, the great majority were from people who took good care of their clarinets (or so the claim is) and part of the maintenance was oiling their clarinets on some regular basis.
Since I don't know the number of people who oil vs. don't oil, or the number of people whose clarinets haven't cracked when oiled vs. not oiled, or any of a large number of other dependent and independent variables, I have to say that I know nothing. I don't think anyone has ever done a statistically relevant study of cracking vs. cracking IRT oiling, with controls both way, over any reasonable length of time. But does it matter? The clarinet is just a tool for making music anyway, and I don't have enough time on this earth to obsess over it one way or another.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-02-27 08:56
I know there are academic musicians on this forum, and possibly academic technicians. Where better a place to try and get some statistics together?
Could an academic or statistically capable player design a simple study to at least get started on finding out what answers may be possible (or likely what further questions need asked) to settle this?
A suggestion would be a thread on the forum to look at frequency of oiling, amount of playing the instrument gets, age of instrument, make of instrument, whether has cracked.
Other confounders will include things like ambient humidity, seasonal weather changes, outdoor or indoor use, whether the instrument was bought new or second hand (could include only instruments that were owned from new for example), wet or dry player, type of oil used - and many other variables.
So a challenge to an academic mind - start a thread, let it run for a year, keep it on top (?sticky) and then analyse the stats and let us know.
Chris
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-02-27 10:34
Chris J wrote:
> I know there are academic musicians on this forum, and possibly
> academic technicians. Where better a place to try and get some
> statistics together?
>
Not here - if someone wants to do the analysis, we're happy to let them post their email and have them gather and process the info offline.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-02-27 11:41
Wood can crack....period. To my knowledge, as a retired Metallurgical and Materials engineer there is no material of construction known to Man that cannot crack given the appropriate conditions. Wood clarinets crack in the upper sections and they crack in the Bells so one might infer that there are even different modes of cracking type failure involved with clarinets. Buffet's position on oiling is probably more for their protection than the customer's and the fact that improper oiling by customers is probably more common than proper oiling.
Bob Draznik
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