 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-01-03 19:24
My altissimo notes D, D#, E, and F have been squeaking a lot lately. The F# speaks difficultly, but the G is fine.
This happens a lot when I'm tonguing the notes. There seems to be a lot less problems when slurring them.
Does anyone have any thoughts on why I keep squeaking on these notes? Thanks!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-01-03 19:52
Well, first of all, do you study with anyone? Someone who knows what to listen for and hears you play can most easily eliminate possible problems from consideration and help zero in on what the problem _is_, as opposed to what it _might be_.
That said, the most likely cause, assuming this wasn't a problem earlier and suddenly started to be one only "lately," is reeds. Or by now, what may have started as a reed problem has now morphed into a tension or contortion problem as you've tried to find ways to avoid the squeaks.
An important question is whether or not this is really a recent problem that didn't exist before. If it's always been a problem, then more basic habits of embouchure and tonguing or problems involving other parts of the setup (e.g. your mouthpiece) may be involved.
E, F and F-sharp are often less stable notes than D and G, at least on clarinets I've owned. It's possible that some small leak from one of the pads that's still closed when you play those notes could be venting enough to make the notes unstable. You'd think a leak would be causing problems in the lower registers, too, but perhaps you're more able to compensate in the other registers and don't notice the problem so much.
If you've made any change that coincided with the beginning of these squeaks, going back and undoing the change would probably be the first thing to try.
Just a few possible suggestions, but diagnosing something like this accurately is nearly impossible at this distance.
Karl
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-01-03 21:01
Thanks for you reply Karl.
I don't remember having this problem last year.
All my reeds squeak on these notes, some more than others. I've also tried my other mouthpiece, ligatures, barrel, but those didn't really help much either.
I do squeak on some other notes occasionally too, but usually it's during a fast run and I don't catch which note it is.
One other note, which I noticed squeaks occasionally, is the clarion A. It happens when I play altissimo C# to clarion A. But that doesn't happen nearly as much as the altissimo.
I squeak a lot going from clarion A --> altissimo D.
The F also is usually like a half squeak, half F
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-01-03 23:06
Well, that slur from C# to A can be a little unstable anyway. The reed needs to be under control to do any of the things you're having trouble with.
It's possible your reeds are just a little too soft. It sounds (again from here - I can't actually hear the problem) as if you may not have full embouchure control over the reed. The higher you go on a clarinet, the more firmness is needed *around* (not under) the reed to control it. A reed that's too soft can cause you to back off too much (to prevent closing the reed) and in the process cause you to lose control. Likewise, a reed that's too soft can force you to change the position of your tongue and soft palate to produce a sound in a way that will interfere with good control as you go higher. You want the rest of the clarinet to be full and resonant, so if you try a heavier reed, it shouldn't cause a loss of quality over the rest of the instrument's range.
Or, if the reed is too soft you could be pinching it off, which can also cause squeaks.
By the way, reeds that are unbalanced can also exaggerate control problems - the higher you go, the more unstable the response. If you don't know anything about checking for balance in a reed, your teacher can show you (you never said if you have a teacher).
It may be that your embouchure just isn't firm enough to control those notes (and the C#-A interval) and you've just never noticed because the music you're now playing is more challenging and not as tolerant of problems that have been there all along.
Tonguing, especially fast articulation in that register can make any problem you're already having worse. Or it could be that the way you're articulating may be directly contributing to the problem - again almost any technical problem becomes more critical as you play higher in the clarinet's compass. Any jaw movement as you tongue will have worse consequences the higher you go.
Trouble is, no one can tell which of these (singly or in combination) could be causing your squeaks without hearing you and, preferably, seeing you as you play the problem passages. There's so much that needs to be working, both from the player side and the equipment side. I hope some of what I've written will help. Not all of it will apply, and there could well be other things going on that I might think of if I heard and saw you in person.
Don't try to change too many things at once. The end result is almost certain to be more confusion and frustration.
If you still can't solve the problem and you aren't already studying with someone, find a competent teacher - a clarinet player, because this is a level at which a generalist whose main instrument is something else may not have all the necessary experience and insight.
Karl
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-01-03 23:24
Thanks for all your help Karl.
I think it's a combination of a lot of the things you said.
What I think it is a little embouchre, a little breath support, a little reed, but strongly suspect it's mostly the clarinet. I've noticed clarion G and A tend to squeak sometimes, but the altissimo notes squeak a lot more.
I recently bought the ATG reed system and it's been a big help with reed balancing.
I'll probably ask the 1st and 2nd chair clarinetists on Monday to see if they squeak on my clarinet on the notes that I was having problems with.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-01-03 23:57
Make sure they test the clarinet both with their own mouthpiece/reed and then, if all seems well with the instrument (and if you aren't squeamish about sharing mouthpieces), with your mouthpiece and reed.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2009-01-04 00:13
Check that the reeds are balanced and completely flat on the back. Be sure that your tongue is not off to one side, too low on the reed or too heavy. Consider your tongue position. Perhaps work slowly on scales through the entire range, being careful to keep your tongue close and in the same position all the way. If it works, gradually increase speed.
Good Luck!
Post Edited (2009-01-04 03:36)
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-01-04 00:35
I don't think sharing mouthpieces would work well :P
I'm still working on the balancing part with the ATG system (which is amazing), and my reeds are flat on the back.
I'll check with the tongue position.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-04 01:07
Assuming your reeds are sealing on the mouthpiece, they are not to soft for you and the clarinet is not leaking, you said you can slur those notes without a problem, than it's probably you. Chances are that you are voicing differently when your tonguing up there than when you slur. This is a very common problem because your tongue is moving much more than when you're sluring. It could be an array of reasons. You may have the front or back of your tongue to high, or too low. You may be voicing wrong, tongue position mainly, choking off the air in your throat or simply pinching when you begin to tongue up high. Each of those notes you mentioned has a different amount of resistance, you have to equalize them with support and voicing. There's never only one reason for something to go wrong, or right for that matter, on a clarinet. I hope all this confusion helps. Unfortunately there is no help button on our clarinets. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457, Listen to a little Mozart, live performance.
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-01-04 01:25
Ed,
The confusion does help, since I can understand it :D
When I practice slower, the squeaking does not happen as much, probably because I can concentrate doing more things correctly.
For the leak test, do I just cover the end of a joint and blow air through the other end and finger the long B?
btw, someone should invent a help button on the clarinet... or auto-repair.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-01-04 01:45
They sell HELP buttons at Staples - they're good for everything!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-01-04 01:57
I'm not sure if you meant to do it with the clarinet assembled, if you are going to finger "long B." In case you were, I think it's easier to test each section separately. Unless you have the right size rubber stopper, it's much easier to stop the end with the palm of one hand while you close the holes with the other than to try to close the end of the two sections together with some part of your leg.
I've always tested by sucking air out rather than blowing it in. If air is getting through anywhere you'll lose the suction quickly. Some players blow air through, but if you blow too hard you may force pads open, defeating the test. If you don't blow hard, you may not feel the air getting out. Many techs these days have vacuum machines - they suck air out but can actually measure the degree of vacuum.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-01-04 04:20
I guess you might have to see it done once. You suck the air out and the end you're sucking from more or less naturally pulls up against your lips. Or you can guide it down to just your lower lip. If the opening stays stuck against your lip for a decent amount of time - several seconds - without letting go, you've got a good seal. If you never get a suction at all, you have a significant leak in one or more pads - you still have to figure out which.
Some people moisten their fingers and the palm of the hand that's closing the bottom of the section - seems to provide a better seal.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-04 15:40
kdk is correct, that's the best way to do it. It will be the upper joint that will cause this problem if it is a leak. Another way is to do it with the mouthpiece and reed on the top joint. First make sure your reed is sealing on the MP. Put the reed on, hold your hand over the bore opening and suck the air out of the MP. If it's not leaking it will create a vacuum and your reed will pop opened once you let go of holding your hand over the bore opening. If you're reed does seal you then do the same thing as kdk said but with the MP and reed on the top joint. You suck the air out of the top joint, your reed should close when it creates a vacuum and pop when you release it. If the joint is leaking, you can't create a vacuum.
By the way, a leaky reed will certainly cause you the problem you are having. Good luck, ESP
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-01-05 00:21
I think my reeds are slightly warped, but they don't seem to be leaking when doing the reed leak test. (although I suspect I'm doing it wrong for some reason)
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2009-01-05 14:26
Here are a couple ideas on leaks in general that I don't think have been covered:
Make sure the bridge is properly adjusted. It can keep the pad above the RH rings from closing. This won't be disclosed in single-joint tests.
Play a long B with the lightest possible finger pressure. If it squeaks, or doesn't speak, increase finger pressure in different areas to see where added pressure helps. This will help determine which pads or combinations may not be seating correctly. Also make sure none of the rings are too high. You want to be able to seal the hole by laying the finger across the ring, not into it.
Suction tests are very helpful, but they may miss a pad that needs just a little extra force to completely seal. They also will not diagnose weak springs.
Unless spring forces are really light, I find it possible to put quite a lot of pressure on either section of a Bb clarinet without blowing pads open.
Finally, on older instruments watch out for end play in the hinge rods. Pads may seat fine at one point and then go out of whack while playing because the seat moves around.
Best regards,
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
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