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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-12-30 00:09
I know that Rico Reed vitalizer packs have been discussed frequently on this board. It's a great concept, but are there currently quality control issues?
My daughter bought a Rico reed case in the middle of November. When she purchased it, she inserted the 73% reed vitalizer pack that came with it, and it worked well. The packs are supposed to last 45 to 60 days, but hers only lasted for about 35. I went out yesterday to buy two refills (the blue packs). They were tightly sealed in the outer wrapper, but both of them are already hard. In other words, they're completely useless and they haven't even been used.
Is there any way that a "dead" vitalizer pack can be revived? Has anyone else had this problem?
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2008-12-30 00:31
I've had good luck with the vitalizer packs, though some individual packs probably last longer than others, depending on climate and how often --and for how long--the reed case is left open.
I live in the Northeast, and the packs probably work a bit harder in the dry winter months.
I've found that you can prolong the life of a pack by storing the reed case in a freezer bag. I've managed to keep one pack alive for almost six months that way.
The packs I've seen are not blue (you referred to blue packs). They are predominantly white, with a gray and blue logo. Is that what your daughter uses? If you got stuck with two stale packs, why not return them to the store or to Rico directly for a refund?
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2008-12-30 00:53
So how did you know clarinetguy that the pack was`nt working? Did your reeds stop playing or change colour? No one in this country (Aus) to my knowledge ever uses one. Whether the reed is bone dry or dripping moisture as soon as you stick it in your mouth both would be instantly wet to the same degree.
Do you think this fancy contant humidifier extends the life of the reed? I doubt it and at $2 a reed does it matter? A reed holder will keep them flat.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-12-30 01:13
Rusty's point seems logical but it doesn't seem to hold true. From my perspective drying a reed out will change it. It's sort of like saying put the reed in the oven at 500 degrees for one hour. Let it cool down until it is at room temperature. It should be the same as it was before because the reed temperature is the same as it was in the beginning. Humpty Dumpty couldn't be put back together again.
You can put back the missing ingredient in the reed but other things have changed. The reed plays differently.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-30 01:46
Rusty, you're missing the point of a Reed Vitalizer. The advantage of it is that it keeps the humidity stable so that it in turn helps prevent reed warping. Having them in a reed case alone does not actually keep them flat, that's a fallacy. You would have to have thousands of pounds of pressure on the reed to actually keep it flat, and once it got wet it would still probably warp if it had that tendency. All wood will warp when going from wet to day; it's a matter of when and how much so keeping them humidity controlled is the best way to prevent warping. I prefer the #58 packs myself.
Clarinetguy, the best way to keep the Vitalizers last a long time, mine last from 6 to 12 months, is to always keep them in an air tight freezer bag. Never let the Vitalizer stay exposed to the air. Take your reeds out, choose the one you want to play and close the bag ASAP with the other reeds inside to keep them from drying out. If the Vitalizer pack begins to crystallize put it in a freezer bag, without any reeds, and let it sit for 24 hours with a wet sponge inside the airtight bag. Always check the Vitalize pack by feeling it to see if it's mostly a soft pack. They will dry out if they've been sitting on the shelf for too long, even in a sealed pack. They can usually be bought back to life if they are not to far gone by doing what I suggested. I was told to do that by someone from the Rico Company after I received a shipment that was partly crictilized. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart, Live performance.
.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-12-30 03:02
Here's the deal -
You were sold really old vitalizer packs. The Blue packages were replaced by the white well over a year ago, maybe 2 by now.
The white packages are also packaged much more tightly and they don't expire in waiting like the previous ones did.
Don't use a vitalizer pack that comes with the reserve packs as they are for storage only. (personal opinion only is that the 35% that come with the reserve reed aren't even real packs).
What you need to do is to return the blue packs to your dealer and tell him that he's selling really old stock.
The Vitalizer packs work really well and are worth buying again so don't give up on them.
btw, I'm not paid for my endorsement, and if I don't like it, I won't endorse it plain and simple.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2008-12-31 05:30
Well if I have never used one then I suppose I should`nt be too skeptical of them. So if I sounded that way my apologies..
But on this business of drying out, we are not going to 500 deg. and down the reed is subjected to about a +or- 30F. Cane can take this easily.
In a very dry environment I concede the reed may warp but I have never found that the warps don`t go as soon as the reed is mouth wet or becomes wet as it is played.
If there was a noticeable effect on the sound, clarinet players in their thousands world wide would be aware of this ; but I wonder how many fingers are needed to count the Vitalizers sold?
I love gimmics but $58 US plus renewals to stop a few waves on a $2 reed I`m happy to leave to the more affluent folk.
Happy New Year all.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2008-12-31 08:30
Those waves in the tip of the reed aren't warpage. A warped reed actually becomes convex across the back surface, which should be flat. The sides pull upward, particularly if the reed dries unevenly between the top and bottom surfaces. The little waves in the tip you're talking about always go away once the reed is completely moist. Warpage, once it happens, doesn't go away without sanding the surface back to a flat condition, which many times ruins the reed by making the heart too thin.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2008-12-31 14:08
Rusty...
I've often wondered what I'm doing paying $4.95 (U.S.) per vitalizer pack to maintain a $2 (or so) reed. The fact is, in New York or in the Philadelphia area (where David Blumberg resides), the winters and the summers can do things to even the sturdiest reed and the most patient reed restorer.
Once I found that this little bit of packaged humidity manages to stabilize the reeds (and don't forget the freezer bags!) I decided that the cost was worth it. Who wants to spend practice time doing ad seriatim surgery on reed after reed?
Besides, neither my wife nor my children nor my friends want to hear me talk about reed shortcomings anymore. I can't understand why. We talk about it here all the time. What's their problem?
Happy New Year!
chuck
Post Edited (2008-12-31 14:11)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-12-31 21:17
Thanks to everyone who responded, but special thanks to David Blumberg and Ed Palanker. I tried putting the Vitalizer packs in a sealed back with a wet sponge, but the packs are too far gone.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-01-01 20:30
Rusty, If you've read the posts after yours you now realize that the investment is only a few dollars to basically help keep your reeds stable, that's the best anyone can ask for. They haven't invented the item to keep reeds perfect yet. As I stated above, I keep them going for 6-12 months buy always keeping them enclosed and not letting them sit opened exposed to the air, the vitalizer or my reeds, ever. To date, they are the best way to preserve a reed from warping so they seal on your mouthpiece. Well worth the 5 bucks and a freezer bag. ESP
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2009-01-01 20:48
If you're compulsive, you could even suck the air out of the ziploc bag when you
seal it up. But who'd ever say that clarinetists are compulsive  .
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-01-03 00:27
You know the vitalizer bags have died when the reeds cough twice, emit a few faint chirps and disintegrate into minuscule grains of cane.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-01-03 03:15
Inside the packs are chemical salts - different salts become hydrated or give up water vapor depending on the chemical salt used. The hydrated salts are mushy in the packs and the dried out salts of course are hard. They can go through many hydration and dehydration cycles but these are not infinite and they become poisioned by other atmospheric chemical compounds and cease to function after a while. The salts selected by Rico are common cheap chemical salts - IMO not giving the optimum humidity ranges - but the more expensive but also toxic salts are probably not for mass consumption in the market. There is about 5 cents worth in each package - but a very nice package !!!
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-01-03 03:21
I stand corrected here mainly on the price issue. I don`t understand some of the pricing. I read $58 dollars on a post, then $4.95 from a weberfam post, then David says $10 and when I look up the pricing on the web sales pages they are mainly #23 to #30US.
Anyway if it`s $25 or less and it makes you happy then the Vitalizer is worth it. Cheers
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-03 05:00
The Doctor wrote:
<<The salts selected by Rico are common cheap chemical salts - IMO not giving the optimum humidity ranges - but the more expensive but also toxic salts are probably not for mass consumption in the market.>>
The patents (and the Humidipak website) indicate that you can basically achieve any humidity level you might want by using a combination of different salts (or sugars--sucrose is one chemical mentioned).
Makes me wonder why all the Vitalizer packs have RH's greater than 50%, since--in light of what they say about how these packs work--because it seems like these values were deliberately chosen on Rico's part.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-01-03 12:11
Actually, combinations of salts do not work well because they fight against each other and simply mixing x amount of salt A and y amount of salt B does not give you a hybrid combination with any longevity. They are not synergistic. There are ways to make them work together but this is a trade secret. Sugars may be added as stabilizing agents and they too have various hygroscopic qualities depending on the sugar molecule and structure. The salts giving the lowest RH are more esoteric, expensive, and potentially toxic (e.g Lithium Chloride) and the ones used by Rico are the cheaper - e.g Potassium carbonate, Postassium chloride and even sodium chloride to give the humidity ranges stated.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-01-03 12:55
The Vitalizer thick plastic package which has the vitalizer pack inside it (you put individual reeds in the package) costs around $10-15
The replacement refills cost about $5.
And the Vandoren product is what costs $55-60.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-01-03 12:56
Rusty..
The Rico reed case is about $20. Each individual vitalizer refill for that case is 4.95 plus tax in the stores I shop in. They can be ordered for roughly that amount from large retailers like Woodwind & Brasswind. They are not $10 apiece or $58 a piece. Never have been.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-01-03 13:02
Rusty..
The Rico reed case is about $20. Each individual vitalizer refill for that case is 4.95 plus tax in the stores I shop in. They can be ordered for roughly that amount from large retailers like Woodwind & Brasswind. They are not $10 apiece or $58 a piece. Never have been.
I don't know what David was referring to when he mentioned a cost of $10. He may have been referring to a twin-pack, though I've not seen them sold that way.
(sorry for the double post; am working on an alien laptop)
Post Edited (2009-01-03 13:12)
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-01-03 13:34
nice price, if you're getting 2 of them.
otherwise, you're overpaying.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-01-03 13:37
I have no theoretical ground to back my experince with the rico vitalizer, but I have found them to be a great product. I understand the pack is much more expensive than the raw material, however the marketing and packaging is worth it.
More than temperature differences, I have found that humidity level have had a great impact on my reeds. Boston can get very dry in the winter month and my reeds tended to warp and just feel very different from one day to the next.
Since using the vitalizer, I haven't had any warps and found my reeds to last longer and be more consistent.
I use the Rico reed case with the vitalizer insert (~50%) and this has been so far the easiest, most portable, and low maintenance solution to storing my reeds. I go through about 3 vitalizer per year and it is $15 well spent.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-01-03 14:22
Only downside with the case is the size for students who don't have a case cover with a pocket. Same for the vitalizer package.
They are certainly too big to be inside a normal case. A redesign to change that would be a good thing to me.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2009-01-03 15:22
I can absolutely vouch for the effectiveness of the Vitalizer packs; Mr Palanker's colleague Steve Barta first made me aware of them when I met him in NYC a couple of years ago. I currently am getting multiple months usage on pretty much all of my properly balanced reeds which are stored in freezer bags with 58% packs. A small hygrometer in the bag confirms the consistency of the humidity levels. Before I began using this system, I always had serious reed consistency/warpage issues in the cold and dry months here in the Northeastern US; this is simply not a problem anymore.
Great product, give it a shot.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-01-04 01:32
The Doctor wrote:
<<Actually, combinations of salts do not work well because they fight against each other and simply mixing x amount of salt A and y amount of salt B does not give you a hybrid combination with any longevity.>>
OK. That makes sense.
My concern about using something like this would be mold growth, especially if I put my reeds away and don't play on them for a few days. Is that a problem for anybody?
Also, do the salts do anything to inhibit mold growth? I've heard that salt (NaCl) slows mold growth, but if the salt is tucked away in Reed Vitalizer packaging, it would seem like it would have little or no effect on mold growth outside the Vitalizer pack itself.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-01-04 16:33
The salts themselves do nothing to inhibit mold growth - except that mold will not grow on the salt crystals because it is a hostile environment for them. The salts only regulate humidity levels - water vapor in the air. Here in the South I will not store reeds or clarinets above 50% RH because of the fear and reality of rapid mold growth - just my own environmental boogy man.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Lee
Date: 2009-01-04 22:33
How does the Reed Vitalizer compare with the Reed Mate? I've had good luck with that case for storing reeds.
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Author: hellochris
Date: 2009-01-05 00:59
I put a reedmate in a bag with a vitalizer.
Does this work?
Also the 82% packs were hard for me too. However, while hard, it molded my reeds. Any suggestions? I use tupperware.
Additionally, doesn't the reed mate have the same problem as the old vandoren reed cases? The charcol dries the reeds out, no?
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2009-01-05 22:25
On alittle bit of a side note, has anyone tried keep two Vitalizers in one bag? Will they keep each other hydrated? ; )
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-01-09 13:46
i dont know the chemistry of it, but even if you could, you'd have to slit open the packaging.
by breaking that seal, the integrity of the product is lost.
the pack, to start with, is small and slim and slips neatly into the flat reed case. so even if you could somehow reconstitute the mixture, you'd have to find a way to maintain the packing profile.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-01-09 15:06
Weberfan is correct that opening the packaging is a bad idea and getting the scattered salts around you gear is a bad thing too. Unfortunately the pure saturated salts become contaminated with other chemicals in the air and water itself (unless they use ultra pure water to hydrate) and loose their recycling capability over time. The recycling process too is not 100% efficient and looses efficiency over time - otherwise it would be the perfect perpetual motion machine!
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2009-01-09 15:07)
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