 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-12-17 03:49
A friend and I have devised a mechanism for throat B flat that allows the use of the B flat trill key hole, and "neutralised" by closing the thumb ring. Without going in to too much detail I will say that it is similar to the Mazzeo mechanism but allows the use of resonance fingerings.
The only major disadvantage I can think of is that this system will make the use of the B flat trill key impossible when trilling from "high C" (thumb, reg key) to the D above. The other options for this trill are, on my clarinet at least, far less than ideal. On the other hand, I can't think of too many places where this trill is used (Capriccio Espagnol comes to mind... but not too much else).
The advantages are of course an improved throat B flat, but also that this would allow the insertion of a smaller reg vent tube to improve intonation on high B/C. (this vent tube produces a throat B flat that is a touch too flat when used in combination with resonance fingerings).
So I ask you all- do you think that it is worth sacrificing this C-D trill, for the sake of improved intonation in the upper register left hand (I believe the smaller vent tube also makes the altissimo notes more secure), and a really convenient alternative fingering for throat B flat?.
dn
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-17 06:58
The C6/D6 trill is required in:
Chausson Andante et Allegro (one of my favourite pieces)
Saint-Saëns Sonata (not one of my favourite pieces)
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-12-17 07:21
Can it be neutralised by reference to the first finger ring instead?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-12-17 08:03
It's not exactly clear to me what you mean. Do you mean a mechanism that, when you press regular throat Bb fingering, it will open the side trill Bb (instead of the register hole), and automatically(?) also close the thumb ring? Can you clarify? If I understood you correct, then the problem with the trill C/D is that 3rd trill key is a flat D (the register key would close), is this correct?
You can have a slight compromise of just a little flat high D by trilling with the throat G# key. You can help that by trilling with the G# plus the right side Eb/Bb key at the same time (will help the D tuning), or compromise the C tuning by holding the Eb/Bb if you prefer (not great C intonation but easier, though the former option isn't difficult either).
Whether that "sacrifice" is significant depends on how much YOU need it, and how the throat and side Bb play specifically for you, on your instrument and setup i.e. Can you possibly know whether you will need this trill? Can you really know what pieces you will or won't play in the future? etc. etc.
I'm not sure the opinions of others can really help here. On my clarinet I wouldn't do this because of the ways I use the Bb trill for other things than the usual, and how the throat and side Bb are. But OTOH I don't think other ways of trilling C/D are a huge compromise to prevent you from doing this, if you think it gives you a lot of improvement (but judging from how these options work on my instrument, which could be different).
(just to mention FWIW I have tried changing the register vent size on my clarinet).
Post Edited (2008-12-17 08:06)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-12-17 08:28
Donald, have you got photos of this mechanism?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-12-17 08:33
I am assuming Donald wants to patent this, and hence will not disclose any design information other than under NDA.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-12-17 15:53
"I can't think of too many places where this trill is used (Capriccio Espagnol comes to mind... but not too much else)."
so, what happens when you need to play the Capriccio Espagnol?
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-19 03:06
First of all, you really should not use the trill key in Capriccio Espagnol unless absolutely necessary because the intonation and tone color are much better using the regular D fingering, it's not that much of a problem if you have the technique to play that in the first place. I'm sure some pros us the trill key and make is sound good but those that I know use the regular D key. It's not a trill, this 16th notes played quickly. Secondly, you can trill C-D using the left hand throat g# key to trill a D, it's a bit flat but that can be solved by keeping the right hand Bb side key depressed or trilling them together. It's not as well in tune as using the key mentioned above but it will work for a trill. Trills are often very forgiving.
By the way, I prefer the tone quality of my Bb using the finger combination I use and the way I voice it rather than the side key, it's a warmer, fuller tone quality. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart, live performance.
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Author: vials
Date: 2008-12-19 09:46
The C6/D6 trill is also required in Solo de Concours by André Messager.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2008-12-19 12:07
Players who need to play that trill would find other ways to do it - if they found your mechanism worthwhile for its benefit on throat B-flat. But, since you're already familiar with the Mazzeo system, you know that clarinet players tend to resist these innovations if they force changes in the techniques they're used to.
I have a Patricola C clarinet that has a slightly different mechanism from the one you describe. I'm sure they also put it on their other instruments. Instead of using the side B-flat tone hole, when you finger B-flat with A plus register key, it actually opens a separate additional vent hole (the register vent still opens normally - the B-flat results from opening A plus the register vent plus the additional opening) which closes when the thumb ring is depressed, allowing the register vent to operate normally above the break. Since it uses a separate added tone hole that only opens for B-flat, it's completely "transparent" to the player and doesn't force any changes to other fingerings.
I'm sure they have (or someone has) patented that innovation. I don't know anything about patent laws, but is your mechanism different enough from theirs to get a separate patent? I have no idea, but before you get too heavily invested, it might be worth checking out.
Karl
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-12-22 07:08
The Buffet basset horn has the same feature as the Patricola. Oddly, however, its side key B flat is so inferior as to be more or less unusable, but it doesn't suffer from the dreaded gurgles, which the standard fingering (and dedicated hole on the underside of the instrument) does.
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2008-12-22 15:27
My Leblanc basset horn and Noblet bass clarinet both have this same feature, that is a separate hole that opens instead of the register vent only when the normal register key is depessed and the plateau covering the thumb hole is not.
The disadvantage of this system is that it requires careful adjustment.
Regards,
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
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