 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: davidsampson
Date: 2008-12-14 21:17
Hi
My long B, and to some extent the C right above it, are very very sharp. The bass is a low-C, so pulling out at the bell is not helping. I can almost lip it down, but its awkward and the tone quality is not the best. Is there anything I can do about this?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-12-14 21:55
It's a very common problem.
A lot of part time bass players exacerbate it by playing with an overly firm embouchure. Tongue level/vowel choice can help here too. More of an "O".
Mouthpiece choice can be a factor too. I found some improvement by switching from a Vandoren piece to a Selmer on the old Selmer I was playing.
Key heights can be an issue too, but beware - lowering the pitch of the B can result in a low E that's too flat to be usable.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-12-14 23:53
I've had to modify the toneholes on many bass clarinets to reduce (though rarely eliminate) the sharpness of the low clarion B (and to a lesser extent the C); this makes the low chalumeau E and F a bit flat, but I consider it an acceptable compromise as out-of-tuneness on those lower notes is less noticeable than in the middle of the range.
The problem is more severe on most single-register-vent designs (e.g. the majority of Leblanc/Noblet/Normandy/Vito, Bundy/Selmer USA, etc.); but also shows up frequently in the more complex double-register-vent instruments. It is annoying! One has to be prepared to "lip down" the long B and C to moderate the pitch.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2008-12-15 00:14
I pull the middle joint of my Buffet Prestige low C to help bring those notes down a bit, but not so much as to make the low F & E unmanagable. I pull about the width of a nickel and it seems to help. The jumper keys are adjusted to accomodate this pull.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-15 01:03
First let me say that is a very common problem. Try to remember that the low notes on the bass clarinet are very forgiving, much more so than the break notes. The most important thing in tuning a bass clarinet is to get the throat tones and break notes in tune because it's actually used more in that register. My old model Selmer I am able to depress the first RH thumb key down for the break notes and it makes them flatter but all newer makes and models are unable to do that. I wish they kept that ability. Anyway, mine would still be sharp so I pull out the middle join some and I have cork in the upper half of the lower tone holes that produce the C#, B and Eb on my bass to lower the pitch for those notes. The thickness of the cork is about an 1/8 of an inch thick on mine but that would vary with the severity of the problem of course. Yes, it does make the lower notes a bit flat but as I said, they're pretty forgiving. You do have to be reasonable though. You can't make them ridiculously flat. One needs to get a good compromise. Once you have it as good as you can get it you can then drop the back of your throat a bit more than usual and relax your embouchure as much as possible and still get a focused tone. If all else fails, you need to push the neck in or pull it out depending on the passage you're playing. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
Listen to a little Mozart, live performance. Not of bass of course.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-12-15 03:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-12-15 06:02
>> My old model Selmer I am able to depress the first RH thumb key
>> down for the break notes and it makes them flatter but all newer
>> makes and models are unable to do that. I wish they kept that ability.
Then the compromise is that you'd have to press the low Eb key to play the lower notes (like your bass I assume). I definitely prefer the newer compromise that doesn't need the pinky for lower notes, eventhough it also have disadvantages.
Post Edited (2008-12-15 07:28)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2008-12-15 07:26
It does surprise me that no makers are fitting a mechanism to deal with this, as the problem compromises the effectiveness of the instrument so obviously.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2008-12-15 16:58
In terms of professional level clarinets we are talking about clarinets made in previous decades. I haven't played the new Selmer model much, but the the 1193 Buffet bass clarinet has eliminated this problem in its design.
On older instruments, primarily instruments built in the 70's, I have dealt with this problem before in a variety of ways. On one bass clarinet with an extremely sharp B and C, I devised cork "half moons" shaped to fit in the tone holes that vent these notes. These were inserted inside the tone hole toward the top side of the tone hole, lowering the tone hole on the instrument.
This was an effective way of lowering the pitch enough to be acceptable. There were two nice things about this procedure. Since the cork inserts were attached with contact cement, the "operation" was totally reversible. The other nice thing is that even though it reduced the tone hole size, there was surprisingly little degradation of the tone quality.
There was some lowering of the pitch of the 12ths below, but as Ed says, it is more important to get the throat notes and the break notes inline with each other.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New Buffet Clarinets
Worl Class Clarinet Mouthpieces
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-15 18:16
I agree with Walter, the newer instruments, both Selmer and Buffet have largely fixed this problem. I don't know about the other brands, I've never tried them. Of course not all instruments are created equal so always try to find a few to try before you buy. His description of the "half moons" is exactly what I was talking about, I like his terminology. ESP
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DougR
Date: 2008-12-15 18:21
It's good to know Ed's and Walter's solutions, since my Selmer series 9 (low Eb) shares the sharpness issues--additionally the long C# is awfully high (which can be mitigated somewhat by depressing simultaneously the C# and long-B keys, which tunes the note but also muffles it a bit). There's that bass solo at the end of the Mahler 4 final movement, where the C# has GOT to be in tune, and unfortunately on MY horn it's unlippable (as I found to my chagrin when I checked my recorded results).
Thanks, guys!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-12-15 19:47
The long B on many bass clarinets is horribly sharp mainly due to the compromise location of the register key vent. In order to tune the B spot on, one would have to lower the pitch of low E to an almost unusable degree.
Try this: fingering low E, open the second-from-the-top RH trill key with your right thumb. Betcha (I speak Alaskan) the B that results is in tune!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-12-15 19:54
Steve Fox has a compensating mechanism/tone hole.
Freelance woodwind performer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-16 00:14
Tuning your bass depends so much on your bass. Lowing my B the way I did makes the low E very playable, I've never had a problem with that and I've been using the same bass clarinet for over 40 years in the BSO. It's all a matter of degrees. Larry's solution to bring the B down is an interesting solution, and very value at times, but wouldn't do much good in a solo that you can't get your thumb in place on time. The solution to DougRs problem at the end of the Mahlers 4th is to pull out the neck somewhat to bring the C# down enough, but not so much that it makes the end of the solo too flat, and then lower the break notes with your throat and embouchure and lip up the lower notes somewhat. A better solution is to get a horn that plays better in tune. A costly solution of course. ESP
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2008-12-16 06:48
So, what exactly have Buffet and Selmer done which "fixes" this problem?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: davidsampson
Date: 2008-12-16 20:54
I am not sure, because I have a fairly new (2006) selmer 67, so if there are any improvements from selmer, I should be seeing them. Since its a school instrument, there is only so much in the way of modifications I can do, so I will look into the pad heights. Thank you all for your advice!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2008-12-21 22:41
I just spent a while in front of a tuner pondering this thread. I'm just an occasional bass player equipped with a Noblet instrument that is probably old enough for Social Security. In the past I've played several instruments that had the sharp-long-B problem, including this one. However, lately, as I've gotten used to the horn I've had pretty good luck playing in tune. For me, the main trick seems to be keeping a significant amount of the flabby part of the lip on the reed. I've got the neck pulled about two tenths of an inch and the middle joint pulled about 50 thousandths. (I've had some custom tuning rings made for this.) (This is with Vandoren B44, Optimum Ligature and #3 reed.) I get a good Long B as well as in-tune throat tones without significant change in embouchure. The low E does tend to be flat, but this is easily corrected by tensing the lip (making it less flabby) a bit. The hardest part of the scope to bring into the tune is the upper clarion from about G to C, which tends to be sharp.
No doubt the foregoing flys in the face of conventional wisdom, but it works for me.
Best regards,
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-12-21 23:08
I also pondered over this issue. I came to the conclusion that there is "good out of tune" and "bad out of tune".
The "good out of tune" is when you're playing solo and you can successfully lip up or down that "bad" note as to land reasonably within the tolerance of the western ear (cf equal vs well-tempered vs even-more-exotic tuning).
The "bad out of tune" happens when you're accompanying others or the other way round, when the individual tones rub against each other.
I happen to have a friendly bass with no strong inclination towards either end. After some trial and error I settled to pull the neck a bit and put cork crescents into the A and Ab holes to bring the (otherwise horribly sharp) throat notes even further down (fortunately I can lip down the rare trill but I doubt anyone would notice it). Everything in between means to listen to your teammates left and right and adjust the pitch on the fly. Your embouchure isn't cast in stone, so learn to flegth your lip muthcleth.
The key idea is not to insist to play in absolute tune but to play in unison and avoid rubbing notes.
And the bass allows for a good amount of pitch bending. Ours are not the only instruments with pesky notes, others have to to this as well.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2008-12-22 15:03
Ben,
I appreciate the guidance from someone who obviously has a lot more experience playing bass than I do. I couldn't agree more with the need to be flexible. I adjust on the fly on everything from bass up to Eb soprano. The idea of a constant embouchure seems useful when going up against a tuner, though. If I can get most notes fairly close with a baseline embouchure, then the real-time adjustments will be a lot easier.
The biggest problem I've had over the years as a novice and/or infrequent bass player is learning to blow the thing in such a way that the "pesky" notes are even close enough to adjust. In my younger days I used to blame the instrument and pull out every joint until it nearly fell apart. I think I've finally gotten past this problem.
Best regards,
Jim
James C. Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
"I play a little clarinet"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-12-22 15:50
78s2CD wrote:
> I appreciate the guidance from someone who obviously has a lot
> more experience playing bass than I do.
<Cough!> Er, I'm not sure this is the case. :-) I didn't mean to make this impression. I just meant one shouldn't become a slave of the tuner but rather become a harmonic (in every sense) team musician.
So you'd need your ears for every (longish and standing-out) note, whether your tuner indicates "green" or not, simply because the rest of the band might be ever so slightly out of tune.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
