 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rocketmom321
Date: 2008-11-05 19:59
I just wanted to share our first experience and thank everybody once again for all the great suggestions.
My fifth grader is 2 months behind the other kids (they started in September), and he was a bit concerned about being able to catch up and not embarass himself right off the bat. When I got home from work last night, he had to show me right away how he could put his Yamaha rental together and then, he tried to produce a note. No go. I read to him out of his book about forming the emboucher (sp?-sorry) and he tried again. A couple of squeaks, and then Voila! A note! I have not seen a grin that big on his face since we got a puppy. 20 minutes later he was performing a spot-on rendition of Hot Cross Buns, and let me tell you, he could not have been prouder. Then on to Go Tell Aunt Rhody. Over and over again ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif) .
We had to make him stop to go to bed. This morning I didn't have to call him twice, ask him to get dressed (again) or hear any complaints about breakfast. As soon as he could, he got that clarinet out and was at it until the school bus came.
Boy, wouldn't it be something if I could use it as a discipline device ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif) !
Seriously, I know the excitement will wear off, at least a little. And I have no idea where this will take him, but if only to have a thing to love and enjoy forever, it's worth every penny.
Thanks for letting me share.
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2008-11-05 20:49
This was great to read. Thanks for posting it. Sometimes I still have moments of joy like that when I finally play something that has been a problem for me.
Leonard
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Author: Shi-Ku Chishiki
Date: 2008-11-06 04:49
First off, I'm NOT a music teacher and some of what I say might get a different response from others here on the board.
It's great that he's excited about what he's doing. If you're really interested in having something for him to love and enjoy forever, my suggestion would be to allow him to seek his style of music that he's interested in and don't push him away from it just because it's not YOUR type of music..
As someone who started playing Bb clarinet over 50 years ago, I'm grateful that my parents allowed me the freedom to seek out the type of music that I enjoyed playing the most.. in this case it was "JAZZ". Granted, even though I practiced lessons that were in the books.. and played the music that we had to do in school, I always leaned toward "Jazz".
It was nothing for me to listen to Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, Louie Armstrong (trumpet).. and back in the 60's Acker Bilk, along with my main man "Pete Fountain", while playing my clarinet right along with them.. as I still do today.
He may find a certain kind of music that he likes to play/listen to, for hours at a time. Let him do it. If he wants to try to play by ear without using music in front of him.. so be it. He's still going to learn and be better off than if he only practiced reading music while playing just the minimum amount of time that's needed for a passing grade in school.
As I said, my comments are those of NOT being professional advice, but just from a player of over 50 plus years.
Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com
It's not the clarinet that makes the player, but the player that makes the clarinet!
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Author: SolidRockMan
Date: 2008-11-06 11:58
Thanks for sharing. No matter where it takes him he is getting to enjoy making music, surely one of life's richer pleasures.
A few weeks ago I played some pieces at my brother-in-law's wedding (from 'Braveheart', his favourite movie). Although far from an accomplished player I managed to pull it off ok and it was quite an experience - terrifying to contemplate, but hugely satisfying in retrospect.
I'd never have been there without the clarinet!
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-06 14:07
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> add the sax if he ever shows a jazz interest.
>
> Jazz clarinet is typically a dead end in most schools.
So true. You're more likely to be able to play flute, but not clarinet in a school jazz band, even if they play Glenn Miller. My parents and I tried to convince my junior high band director otherwise, but to no avail.
I learned alto sax (on my own over Christmas one year) so I could play in our junior high jazz band (auditions were in the spring). I'll never forget the first day I brought my sax to school to practice. When the head band director saw me playing it, she thought I was playing on somebody else's instrument and screamed at me, "Whose horn is that??" (She was not exactly known for having a charming personality, even if she did have a good band program.)
To which I was greatly relieved I could reply, "Mine."
I made it, by the way, and first chair, to boot (thus proving that there is more than one way to skin a cat--and that sax is not that hard if you know clarinet). Of course, I was probably the only kid in the whole sax section who played entirely without vibrato . . . 
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-06 15:08
>> add the sax if he ever shows a jazz interest.
>> Jazz clarinet is typically a dead end in most schools.
>
> So true.
And sometimes so not true. I don't think the suggestion to also play sax is bad, in some cases it can be good, but I can give my example. I played only clarinet, and only classical music, but in high school I started playing jazz. I never learned saxophone or any instrument other than clarinet (and later bass clarinet) but kept playing jazz. My high school, which was a music school, was happy that I played clarinets in the jazz group. But maybe this is an unusual case, because usually the jazz group teacher wrote the parts based on instruments. It was a small school. After I continued to university jazz department also only on clarinets and then just continued to play mostly jazz, and only on clarinets. There are people in the world who do things that are not mainstream or standard. It's important to realize what is interesting for someone to do and try to follow that.
By the way don't worry if your son sometimes seem like he loses interest. I remember (actually I don't but my mother told me) that after a few years that I learned clarinet, still in elementry school, sometimes I didn't play for a long while, maybe even a couple of week. She used to ask me occasionally, when this happened, if I still wanted to play, and I always said yes.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-06 16:09
clarnibass wrote:
<<But maybe this is an unusual case, because usually the jazz group teacher wrote the parts based on instruments.>>
There's the rub. Most of the music published out there for school jazz bands don't include clarinet parts, and a lot of school directors aren't going to want to write out their own clarinet parts.
I also wonder if clarinet is more readily seen as an instrument for playing jazz/popular music in Israel because of its role in Klezmer (than it would be here in post-bop America). My teacher, for example, started out as a symphony player and initially branched out into jazz playing via Klezmer. These days she plays a lot of Benny Goodman stuff.
Post Edited (2008-11-06 16:30)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-06 17:47
>> There's the rub. Most of the music published out there for school
>> jazz bands don't include clarinet parts, and a lot of school
>> directors aren't going to want to write out their own clarinet parts.
Not exactly what I meant. The point I guess is that I and others chose to go to a direction that is maybe unusual. It's important to notice what a person is interested in and maybe try to direct 'things' that way. I could have thought very mechanically: "I think I like jazz - there is a lot of saxophone in jazz - I should play saxophone - then there is a bigger chance that I'll play jazz". But that's not what I was interested in, and rocketmom's son might have his own direction.
>> I also wonder if clarinet is more readily seen as an instrument for
>> playing jazz/popular music in Israel because of its role in Klezmer
The way you write it, it makes it sound like a fact that clarinet is more readily seen as a jazz instrument here. But actually, if I try to think of jazz players (in every type of jazz) that play only clarinet, I can think only of one other person. Pretty much every jazz clarinet player here I can think of now also plays saxophone. Klezmer is a lot more common and there are probably many players.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-06 19:12
clarnibass wrote:
> The way you write it, it makes it sound like a fact that
> clarinet is more readily seen as a jazz instrument here. But
> actually, if I try to think of jazz players (in every type of
> jazz) that play only clarinet, I can think only of one other
> person. Pretty much every jazz clarinet player here I can think
> of now also plays saxophone. Klezmer is a lot more common and
> there are probably many players.
No, I wasn't trying to make a statement of fact, I was actually asking you a question. (that's why I prefixed what I wrote with "I wonder...") I was wondering if Klezmer leads people many people in Israel to take up the clarinet for the sole purpose of playing popular music, and if this was the case, would this possibly explain why a clarinet might be more readily accepted in a school jazz band there. By popular music, I mean basically anything that is not classical. So jazz, Klezmer, and folk music would all be "popular music" under the way I'm using the term.
What David and I were talking about with regard to the U.S. and school jazz bands was not about doubling clarinet and saxophone, but about the fact that school jazz bands here often don't have anyone playing clarinet at all. I had to become a sax player to play in my school's jazz band because there were no parts to be played on a clarinet. period--not even as a sax/clarinet doubler.
Post Edited (2008-11-06 19:23)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-07 07:21
>> No, I wasn't trying to make a statement of
>> fact, I was actually asking you a question.
I thoguht that's what you meant but it's the way you phrased your question....
>> I was wondering if Klezmer leads people many people in Israel to
>> take up the clarinet for the sole purpose of playing popular music
Definitely! But...
>> By popular music, I mean basically anything that is not
>> classical. So jazz, Klezmer, and folk music would all be
>> "popular music" under the way I'm using the term.
Not in this way. Definitely people take clarinet to play klezmer, but very few (almost no one) plays clarinet just to play jazz. Almost all clarinetists who play jazz (I think possibly all) came from 'something' else, like playing classical first, or a saxophonist who added clarinet, or also played klezmer, etc. So here it's not devided in the way you devide it, where classical is seperated from jazz and klezmer.
>> I had to become a sax player to play in my school's jazz band
I understand, but it is not very common here also. I don't know if most schools here even have a music department or a jazz band (maybe). My point was simply to notice what the kid is interested in and maybe try to follow that path. I know what I did/do was/is pretty unusual but that's what I wanted to do.
I don't have a problem with adding saxophone, but look how it was suggested:
>> add the sax if he ever shows a jazz interest.
>> Jazz clarinet is typically a dead end in most schools.
> So true.
I guess I'm very lucky that no one discouraged me like that, and instead I had encouragment to follow my interests and I tried to find ways to follow that. So add sax, don't add sax... doesn't matter (the kid might really like sax), my suggestion is simply to consider all possibilties and follow the kids interests.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-11-07 11:20
But it does matter if he likes jazz and wants to join jazz band eventually to add sax at an early stage. After the 2nd year the competition gets too intense with the only sax instrumentalists. Many jazz bands have limited sections so to be at a competitive level, it should be started in year 1 or 2.
I have many students who do just that.
Moot point if there's no interest in jazz.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2008-11-07 11:50)
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Author: eac
Date: 2008-11-07 14:24
Tape or record his early efforts even after only a week or so. It will be an easy way to demonstrate how much he has improved if he becomes discouraged. I wish I had taped myself last year when I picked up my clarinet after 38 years...
Liz Leckey
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-07 15:23
clarnibass wrote:
>>> add the sax if he ever shows a jazz interest.
>>> Jazz clarinet is typically a dead end in most schools.
>
>> So true.
>
> I guess I'm very lucky that no one discouraged me like that, and instead I
> had encouragment to follow my interests and I tried to find ways to
> follow that.
Well, I wouldn't discourage anyone (including a young person) from picking up the clarinet as a jazz instrument, either. Jazz clarinet is by no means dead as either a solo instrument or as part of a band. In a lot of jazz band settings, the clarinet is absolutely essential. Glenn Miller's "Moonlight Serenade" would not sound right without giving the clarinet the lead, for instance.
However what David and I were talking about was specifically *school-based* jazz bands. It is unfortunate, but even though many of these school-based bands play music that would traditionally feature a clarinet (Big Band/Swing-type music), they usually don't let you audition on clarinet. For me, who grew up listening to Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw (because my parents liked to listen to Big Bands and Swing and we had a radio station in Houston in those days that regularly played that kind of music), finding out that they wouldn't even let me audition as a clarinet player in the school jazz band was a rude awakening.
So I think David's advice is very good. If you want to play jazz in the school band and you're a clarinet player, you need to know saxophone, too. And let's face it, it's a nice skill to have, even if you play in an orchestra, because you never know when they might need a sax player for some piece (like Bolero or Rhapsody in Blue, for instance).
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Author: rocketmom321
Date: 2008-11-10 03:22
Fantastic idea EAC! I only wished I'd recorded the first night! I will definitely get the camera out on a regular basis.
Last night we went to a live concert (Trans-Siberian Orchestra, sadly no woodwinds, but great strings!). Outside there were musicians all over playing for coins, including one man playing a clarinet.
I can see the wheels turning now- oh, dear! ; )
Anyway, we sure appreciate all the support, and wonderful ideas. I'll have to check back after his first school concert.
ps. I have Leonard Bernstein directing the Boston Pops, Peter and The Wolf LP-ahem, from 1967. Still love it.
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Author: eac
Date: 2008-11-10 16:26
You might keep an eye out for free band concerts. If you live any where near a university town, students, ensembles and bands have recitals at the end of the semesters. Some of them can be really fun, like percussion ensembles. Our local community bands give free concerts. And the US Marine Corps band is currently on tour with free concerts (but you probably have to get tickets in advance). I know some of the message board members don't like marching bands (and to tell you the truth I don't much care for the current marching bands playing music that is much better suited to a concert hall or auditorium while marching) but the energy of a marching band or any live music can really connect with younger players.
Liz Leckey
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Author: Shi-Ku Chishiki
Date: 2008-11-11 06:37
What is it with you people? Why is it always "Jazz" is only for the Sax.. and don't even think about playing clarinet if you want to go in that direction!
Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com
It's not the clarinet that makes the player, but the player that makes the clarinet!
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Author: Shi-Ku Chishiki
Date: 2008-11-11 06:54
mrn said..
"I had to become a sax player to play in my school's jazz band because there were no parts to be played on a clarinet. period--not even as a sax/clarinet doubler."
Since when do you need "parts" to play a clarinet Jazz?
Way back when.. and in my prime, I could pick up the ol' "screech stick" and play jazz, boogie-woogie, rhythm and blues, Dixie, etc., etc. and I didn't need a "part".
Jazz.. the rhythm.. the sound.. the feeling.. comes from way deep down in. If you're any wheres half way decent you don't need any stinking "part" to be able to play.
It's all with in ya man.. it's all with in ya! "Parts!?".. Heck NO!
Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com
It's not the clarinet that makes the player, but the player that makes the clarinet!
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Author: Shi-Ku Chishiki
Date: 2008-11-11 07:16
Clarnibass said..
"Very few (almost no one) plays clarinet just to play jazz. Almost all clarinetists who play jazz (I think possibly all) came from 'something' else, like playing classical first, or a saxophonist who added clarinet."
I don't know where you get your statistical information from.. but it sure wasn't that way with me. I started playing Bb clarinet over 50 plus years ago before I was even a teenager.
I didn't come from 'something' else. In fact not only did I never play a sax.. but I was never interested.. and as far as classical goes, I was never interested in traveling down that road.
Our schools jazz band didn't have a sax player.. even though there were a large number in the orchestra, Jr. and Sr. bands.
Our jazz band had a piano which was played by our music teacher, trombone, trumpet, string bass, drums and (let me think now), oh yes, a single Bb clarinetist.. ME!
I guess something must have been wrong with the band seeing there wasn't a sax in it. The only thing I can think of is the lone clarinetist must have felt really embarrassed playing such a instrument in public when a sax was the proper instrument that should have been used. NOT!
Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com
It's not the clarinet that makes the player, but the player that makes the clarinet!
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Author: Shi-Ku Chishiki
Date: 2008-11-11 07:31
mrn said.. "So I think David's advice is very good. If you want to play jazz in the school band and you're a clarinet player, you need to know saxophone, too."
NO!! NO!! and NO!!
As a parent you first go to whoever is in charge of the music department and have him/her justify their position as to why a clarinet isn't considered worthy enough to play jazz. Make sure you bring up Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, Pete Fountain, etc., etc. and have them try to wiggle out of that one.
If they start going negative on you, gently remind them that you have to pass right by the principal's office, which is just around the corner and down the hall, as you leave the building.
If need be, work yourself right on up the line. There's always the superintendent of the school district.. and of course, the school board.
I'm ever so glad there wasn't so much negativity about me being a jazz clarinet player when I was growing up and going to school. Some of the best times in my life were when I was playing the ol' "screech stick" way back when.
Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com
It's not the clarinet that makes the player, but the player that makes the clarinet!
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-11 07:57
Shi-Ku Chishiki wrote:
> Jazz.. the rhythm.. the sound.. the feeling.. comes from way
> deep down in. If you're any wheres half way decent you don't
> need any stinking "part" to be able to play.
As much as I agree with you, somehow I don't think that argument would have carried much weight with my old junior high director as far as letting me audtion was concerned. That was the problem--she simply wouldn't let anyone audition on clarinet, period. No exceptions. Not even Pete Fountain could have auditioned for that band on clarinet. She just wouldn't allow it.
So that's why I went home over Christmas that year and learned how to play alto sax. Once I got in, I had plenty of good opportunities to improvise (and, as I said, I beat out all the guys who normally played sax, so I must have done something right). The big hurdle was just getting my foot in the door, because nobody wanted to give jazz clarinet a chance. I turned out to be a pretty decent sax player, but even so, I would have been much better on clarinet for obvious reasons.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-11 10:52
Shi-Ku Chishiki wrote:
> As a parent you first go to whoever is in charge of the music
> department and have him/her justify their position as to why a
> clarinet isn't considered worthy enough to play jazz.
Been there, done that, doesn't work. You can talk all you want ... the schools use charts, no clarinet in the chart, you don't play clarinet. Period.
Now, once you get beyond high school, clarinet can play a part - almost always as a double. It's reality. Unless you start your own band.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-11-11 11:02
It's basically a double standard when the Jazz group is using a Flute (pushy flute parent initially), and a violin in the group.
Flute makes a jazz band sound ever so "fluffy".....
Then there's the Soprano Sax
Some groups are really progressive, some aren't. It is good advice to check with your band director so see what the parameters are, but unless you want to be seen as a royal pain in his tail, don't argue about it, and certainly don't try to bully him into changing his sections around.
Just like Sax is a dead end for Orchestral playing (handfull of pieces have it), Clarinet is for school jazz.
If the school plays Glen Miller than absolutely use the Clarinet part.
But it will have a clarinet part in the score. Remember that jazz contests which many jazz bands participate in can and often will downgrade non-standard instrumention.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-11-11 11:38
I wonder why everyone's being soo picky about the instrumentation, especially in Jazz. I mean, if someone finds it cool to play the blues on an accordeon (and happens to be good at it), why not?.
And here is an ear-opener for those who think that a sax is utterly incapable of playing classical music.
We bemoan today's lazy youth's disinterest in making music yet do everything, or at least a lot, to deter the few who actually want to play.
--
Ben
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-11 12:40
tictactux wrote:
> I wonder why everyone's being soo picky about the
> instrumentation, especially in Jazz.
It's not us ... it's the band directors, and they're not really that picky. These are essentially the 1st introduction to jazz for most of the students,, and they're not even able to read a chart yet (no "it's in the key of Db and watch the bass for the changes" yet ...), so things are pretty straightforward. They're really happy when they can play a reasonably straight and listenable version of "Caravan" ...
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-11 14:49
Shi-Ku Chishiki wrote:
<<NO!! NO!! and NO!!
As a parent you first go to whoever is in charge of the music department and have him/her justify their position as to why a clarinet isn't considered worthy enough to play jazz. Make sure you bring up Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, Pete Fountain, etc., etc. and have them try to wiggle out of that one.>>
My parents tried that, and they had no qualms about coming across as pain-in-the-neck parents if they thought it would help their kids. Trust me, if there had been a way to make it work that way, they would have figured it out between the two of them--my father was a school administrator and had taught speech and debate 20 years before that and my mother is a retired attorney.
As it turned out, though, learning saxophone was a very positive experience. It broadened my musical skills and was fun. In the end, I was better for it. Clarinet and saxophone are natural "companion instruments," anyway. (Sort of like violin and viola if you're a string player) So I didn't get to be the Benny Goodman of the junior high jazz band, big deal. I learned how to be a Jimmy Dorsey, instead. (or Paul Desmond, Jimmy Giuffre, Eddie Daniels, etc.--take your pick). That's worth something in itself, I'd say.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-11 15:09
When I conducted my Junior High Jazz Band, I usually included up to 3 clarinets and 3 flutes. Also a baritone horn player. Writing out the additional parts for those instruments was no big deal and including 7 additional kids made the parents (and administration) very happy.
Since the Junior High jazz band was the kids' first experience into jazz, my philosophy was "the more the merrier".
However - I made it very clear to those kids that the high school jazz band (aside from a possible clarinet feature tune, which I couldn't guarantee) due to nature of the written charts, uses traditional jazz band instrumentation, and unless they learned saxophone, they wouldn't be able to participate.
Never had a problem with students, parents or administraion understanding that concept.
BTW - we also used both individual vocalists and small vocal ensembles with the high school jazz band, which enabled extra kids to participate...GBK
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-11 15:25
GBK wrote:
<<When I conducted my Junior High Jazz Band, I usually included up to 3 clarinets and 3 flutes. Also a baritone horn player. Writing out the additional parts for those instruments was no big deal and including 7 additional kids made the parents (and administration) very happy.
Since the Junior High jazz band was the kids' first experience into jazz, my philosophy was "the more the merrier".>>
I think I would have loved being in your band, GBK! They need more directors out there like you!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-11-11 16:12
mrn wrote:
> I think I would have loved being in your band, GBK! They need
> more directors out there like you!
We all know that keeping kids motivated about their instrument during the Junior High years is a BIG problem.
I can honestly say that playing in the Junior High jazz band saved a lot of (clarinet) kids from totally dropping out of the instrumental program...GBK
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2008-11-11 16:16
Sorry for being a little late, but if he's a couple of months behind the class, why not have him in private lessons? I've seen a number of students who started lessons far behind and ended up within 3 or 4 months to at least class level.
Meri
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