 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-02 14:39
I'm having real problems with an apparently simple slur from A4 (throat A) up to E5 (clarion E). Time and time again, I overblow the E5 to C#6.
The passage in question is meant to be fast and loud, but even practising it slowly and more quietly I still get the problem. No problem at all playing it tongued, or if I cheat by helping the E5 with a slight tongue stroke.
I doubt the problem is the instrument - I have the same issue with two complete setups.
I get the same overblowing problem if I play a higher note rather than E5. If I play D5 rather than E5, that works fine.
I fear this is something rather basic in how I'm voicing. Another possibility is that I'm not moving all my fingers simultaneously, and am momentarily venting the E3 so that it breaks upwards.
I'd be interested to know whether anyone has come across this precise problem, what they found to be the cause, and how they dealt with it.
I have seen the "99 reasons for squeaks" list, thank you, and don't need to see it again.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2008-11-02 14:59
Have you tried keeping your rh first two fingers in place for the E5 while playing the A4--regular or with A4 vented ala 0XX?
Seems to me I've encountered wind ensemble music requiring this rapid note change but can't recall the title. What I do remember is it was quite awkward, but doable. Please refresh my memory...........
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-02 15:04
I don't remember ever noticing this problem (although maybe I had it many years ago, who can remember....). But I just tried this interval since I already had my clarinet assembled here and I can try to guess what is the problem. I think most likley that you are slower with your first finger, coming from the A key, so your other left hand fingers close their tone holes before, and for a moment you actually have the C# fingering. Same for the D fingering when you jump to F, etc.
I'm pretty sure your embochure and blowing also have something to do with this, because if I blow knowing I'll get the E, but play with the finger mistake, I don't really get the C# very easily and most of the time (unless I make the mistake big) it will still come out as E, but with a delay. If I aim to get the C# with the C# fingering then it's smooth to C#. If I aim for C# and play accurately the E fingering, then still the E will come out first, unless I'm especially accurate with the C# voicing, exaggerating it compared with normal C# voicing.
So my guess is some combination of both problems. However it's possible a different mouthpiece/reed setup or even a different instrument will respond differently to this experiment, and a different player too. Of course there are other possibilities but this is what I came up now.
Nitai
Post Edited (2008-11-02 16:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-03 00:23
Here is an exercised I have used when I have trouble with things like that.
Play throat A and slur down to the low A, then hit the register key. Do this a few times and try to get the time spent on the low A shorter and shorter. Eventually, you will get just the A and E, which is your goal.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-03 02:34
It could be you're choking off the air or changing your embouchure as you slur up to the E (in fact, I'd almost be surprised to find out that it wasn't this). Try putting more air support into the A and letting that air support carry you into the E while keeping your embouchure exactly the same. (I like to think of it as "pushing off" from the A) If you maintain sufficient air support, the register key should pretty much do the work for you. The key, though, is that you can't back off in anticipation of the leap.
In fact, I'll bet that if you had a clarinet-playing friend finger your instrument while you just blew through the mouthpiece, you wouldn't see this problem. Why? Because when you don't know when the register change is going to happen, you don't change your embouchure/breath in anticipation. For this reason I can get my four year old son to play all kinds of virtuosic-sounding stuff in the upper register and across the break (all slurred, mind you) as long as I'm the one working the keys, because he has no idea what's happening and keeps his air/embouchure constant by default. The problem I have with him, in fact, is convincing him to use his tongue to articulate!
I think we clarinet players (especially beginners, but it afflicts experienced ones as well) often have a natural tendency to become overly timid or weak with the breath, especially when it comes to technical problems--it's human nature, after all. And "the break" is one of those things we worry about. The problem is that oftentimes this timidity/worry actually exascerbates the problem you're trying to fix. Instead, relax and play with strength and confidence.
If it helps, first learn how to do this by playing forte (or even better, with a crescendo). Once you get the hang of playing it forte, you can gradually get used to doing the same thing at lower dynamics.
Putting the right hand fingers down is also a good thing to do, as was suggested. A favorite resonance fingering of mine (which use mainly for G4, but also sometimes for A4) is:
o o x / x x o
which, of course, improves the sound (at least on my clarinet), but it also makes the the A4-E5 transition easier. This is similar to the one given above by William, but one or the other might work better for you so I included this here just in case this one happens to work better for you.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-03 11:29
Attachment: IMG_1814-1.JPG (140k)
Many thanks for all this useful input.
I'll start by telling you what the piece is, though it's of limited relevance. It's the Duo by my esteemed namesake Norbert Burgmueller. I attach a photo of the relevant passage, taken from the Simrock edition. I hope this is OK re copyright. If not, and it gets removed, I'm talking about bars 42 and 43; the A4 to E5 slur occurs across the barline.
This piece is at the very limits of difficulty for me. My current goal is to play these semiquavers accurately at half the intended speed - that is at four semiquavers to the second rather than eight to the second as it should be. Right now, I can't even play this passage with any semblance of reliability at two semiquavers to the second!
Taking the comments one by one:
David Blumberg. It definitely isn't the Bb-Eb side key, nor indeed the equivalent sliver key. Nor is it the thumb hole - I had suspected that, but I don't believe that's the problem.
William. Yes, I do keep my right hand in place. You will see that the A4 is preceded by F#4; I play the F# with the ordinary (first-finger) fingering and then put my right hand down as I open the throat A key.
But we can ignore the right hand. Instead of playing A4-E5, I can play A4-G5. Lo and behold, the G5 comes out as E6.
skygardener. Thanks for the exercise. I have tried it and I think it will be useful. I certainly find it hard to hit the sweet spot between sounding the low A and sounding the high C#.
clarnibass suggests that this is a problem with the first finger of the left hand, which may be coming off the throat key quickly enough, but not sealing its tonehole in time. I don't think this is the problem. I have tried playing A4-G5; this leave the right hand free so I can use it to operate the throat key. This makes it is easy to ensure that the left-hand fingers all move together.
clarnibass wrote: "it will still come out as E, but with a delay". This is exactly what is happening to me. Either I get the unwanted C#6, or I get the E5 after a brief break in the sound. Not only is this break audible, but it is going to throw me off big time if and when I play the passage at the intended speed - twice as fast as I'm playing it today.
mrn thinks it is a air and/or embouchure problem rather than a finger problem. I think he's right.
I've tried the simplest exercise of all, repeated tongued G5. With almost no effort at all, I can play a flat E6 with the G5 fingering. I can even play E6 and G5 alternately, without moving my fingers at all, just by a tiny change in voicing. I don't think this indicates a leak in the instrument, because I can do it on both my setups, with no pieces of equipment in common. I don't think it indicates I'm biting (though probably I do) because I can do this even when playing double-lip.
So my next question is; can you move easily between G5 and E6 just by changing voicing? If you can't, that suggests to me that my ability to do so is undesirable, and is a clue that there's something fundamentally wrong about the way I'm voicing.
(edited to clarify the last paragraph)
Post Edited (2008-11-03 13:53)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: redwine
Date: 2008-11-03 12:12
Hello,
If you don't have time to work on it, a quick fix would be to tongue the e, which might solve the problem. If you do have time, try the passage backwards (at least the two notes in question). Then, remember your embouchure feeling and attempt the correct way, keeping everything the same. Good luck.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-03 12:30
There is one more practice technique I use that is always useful for me. I call it 'Playing my mistakes'.
Let's take your example. You are trying to play A-E and A-C# comes out by mistake. In this situation I would 'play my mistake' and purposely play the hitherto mistaken A-C#. Play it a lot- until it is solid. Then play the A-E that you had aimed for initially. It should be better.
My logic for this is that there is something in the brain that has confused these 2 notes and even though you see E your brain produces C#. My method is to play the C# and try to strengthen the feeling of it and force the brain to realize exactly what a C# is- and that it is NOT an E.
At the least, it's worth a shot.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-03 12:36
Norbert, actually I suggested that it's at least a combination of both fingers and mouth/jaw/air (whatever you want to call it - voicing maybe).
First of all, I think Skygardener's idea is excellent, try it and let us know if you can move smoothly, with no break, between throat A and low A. If you can then it's most likely that you don't have a problem with your fingers, although the finger problem I described will be more noticable for E than A, so it's not sure.
If you notice my post again, I tried every combination of 'voicing' with or without making the finger mistake, plus varied amount of delay with my finger. The way that, for me, got the exact same problem as you "it will still come out as E, but with a delay", is when I pruposely delayed my finger a little, but still voiced the E. I guess it's possible that when you play something else will cause the problem. I thought your first finger might be slow or not accurate because it comes from the A key as opposed to the other fingers coming from the air.
Since you sometimes get the C# and sometimes a delayed E, it still sounds to me like a combination of the problems I mentioned. Correct voicing of E possibly with slow first finger you get a delayed E, and when your voicing is wrong you get the C#, with or without any problem with the first finger. Which is why it's important that you try Skygardener's suggestion.
>> So my next question is; can you move easily between these two notes?
Do you mean the throat A and clarion E? If you do, then yes, it's possible to play this interval without the problem.
I also suggest that you practice this phrase slower than how you play it now.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-03 13:50
Ben - I do have time to work on it. All the time in the world.
clarnibass - the end of my recent post was badly written (I'll go back and edit it), so you answered the question I asked rather than the question I meant to ask!
I asked:
"can you move easily between these two notes?"
which you interpreted as meaning between A4 and E5.
I meant to ask:
"can you move easily between G5 and E6 just by changing voicing?" - my point being that I can do so, but I suspect that it is undesirable that I can and it suggests that I am voicing incorrectly.
And I have indeed been practising it r...e...a...l...l...y slowly: the correct speed is eight semiquavers to the second, I am aiming at four as my short-term goal, but have also been practising at two.
I probably won't look at it again until tomorrow, but will let you know how I get on after my next attempt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-11-03 14:46
Norbert,
I just took a look at the picture. I was using my mobile before and I couldn't view the picture.
The fact that the phrase is "Bb A F# A E" is very important. When you are playing the A F# A you are using the LH index only. When you go to the E (I suspect) that you are twisting your wrist just a bit to push up on the thumb and the entire hand moves. This causes you to place the LH index finger just a bit too low on the hole; low enough that there is a gap and that the high C# naturally comes out.
Looking at that picture, I have a different exercise idea. Play Bb, A, F#, A, high B (yes, B natural)- it is not about the notes as it is about the mechanical way the fingers move.
If you try the phrase like this, I think you will instantly feel where you are missing on the index finger. Be sure to place the fingers properly when you play the high B. Play it a few times slow and you should be able to get it faster in a few minutes. Once you can play the A, F#, A, high B, then the way it is actually written should not be a problem.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-11-03 14:56
>> can you move easily between G5 and E6 just by changing voicing?
Also yes. It's just a matter of choice, and the ability to do this doesn't mean there is any problem with your voicing. But it doesn't mean that your voicing of G, when you play a G, is good (but it also doesn't mean that it isn't). By the way, I use the word 'voicing' because that is waht I noticed English/American/etc. people use, it is not exactly a translation of the word I'm thinking, so I hope it's clear.
>> ....have also been practising at two.
Yes, I read that in your previous post  I meant slower than that, maybe about 16th-60. You don't need the entire phrase but at least several notes before so it's in the context. Maybe not necessary, but that's probably what I would do if I had this problem.
I think what would be the most helpful is if you try gardener's suggestion of throat A to low A and report back.
Post Edited (2008-11-03 14:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-11-04 13:59
>But we can ignore the right hand. Instead of playing A4-E5, I can play A4-G5. Lo and behold, the G5 comes out as E6.
I can only do that if I hit the G# key with my left forefinger. Have you got a leak?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
