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Author: brightmoments
Date: 2008-10-26 14:26
I have an R13 Buffett from 1984. The serial number is 251392.
Recently, I had the top joint pinned. Unfortunately, it is still not working properly. I took it to a master repair person for a 2nd opinion. He took one look at it and pronounced it terminally unfixable. Once it has been pinned, you cannot re-pin it. The crack involves the original pinning area.
Rather than making a lamp out of it, I am considering ordering a replacement top joint from Buffett.
Does anyone have experience doing this? Considering the age of the clarinet, what is the likelihood of finding a perfect match.
Bright Moments
Bright Moments Jazz Duo 770-939-8500
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Author: Jamietalbot
Date: 2008-10-26 14:57
I had to replace the top joint on my R13 a few years back after having 3
different cracks pinned.
A repairer will put your old keys on the new joint and then it's a matter luck
wether or not the new joint splits.
In my case it was matter of bad luck.
I hope yours is better!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-26 15:11
It won't be a perfect match to the joint you already have, though it'll be a 'near enough' one as it's an R13 top joint. But no clarinets are made of matching joints as wood is a naturally variable substance.
The current ones don't have the angled C#/G# tonehole like the older ones had. The gaps between pillars may be different which will mean fraising back, swaging keywork and countersinking point screws to make the keywork fit nicely between the pillars.
I've transplanted some Greenline top joints and most of the keywork went straight on (these were new clarinets and the middle tenons had been broken), though some keys had to be fitted as well as pads being reseated or replaced. The tenons will also need to be fitted to the sockets if they're tight.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-26 15:37
Only you can justify that.
Is it worth it to you?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-26 17:03
A different top joint might be completely different and the sound and intonation won't be similar to your old clarinet or what you like, even if it fits. Or you might get lucky and it fits and you like it. The bores are different enough that you can never really know without trying, and that's for clarinets made at the same time. It's probably a lot cheaper than a new clarinet, so whether it's worth the price or not depends on if you like it in the end, which you can't know in advance.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-10-26 17:30
brightmoments wrote:
"He took one look at it and pronounced it terminally unfixable".
Just because he can not fix it doesn't mean it's unfixable.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: brightmoments
Date: 2008-10-26 23:16
What I was told was that once it has been pinned,you cannot re-pin the same place. He indicated that the person who pinned it originally, did not let the crack seal before pinning. Therefore, it re-cracked. He said, that this cannot be fixed.
I am taking it back to the original repair shop, in hope that something can be done, but other than superglue, I am not very confident that it can be fixed.
Thanks for the feedback.
Bright Moments
Bright Moments Jazz Duo 770-939-8500
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2008-10-27 00:30
Send it to Eric Satterlee at Meridian Winds in Michigan. He can drill out the old pins and install new ones. He's done it for me several times on older clarinets. I send him the ones that need lathe work since I don't have one.
jbutler
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-10-27 01:35
I was going to suggest super glue but you mentioned it. One of our players in the BSO has a metal ring around the upper section of the top joint and had the cracks super glued as well first. I would not suggest a new joint, too many years have passed and the new joint will likely not be compatible with the old joint. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-27 06:59
>> What I was told was that once it has been pinned, you cannot re-pin
>> the same place. He indicated that the person who pinned it originally,
>> did not let the crack seal before pinning. Therefore, it re-cracked.
>> He said, that this cannot be fixed.
Hmm.... did it crack all the way to the inside, and leaks? Maybe it ends in a tone hole and leaks? It might be possible to seal it reagrdless of pinning (since pinning by itself doesn't seal a crack). Either way, why would it be necessary to re-pin the same area? If the crack is not all the way to the bore, some repairers claim that it's better to pin when the crack is not closed since the the wood in the area is in a more relaxed condition. It needs to be at least slightly open to insert glue, which IME holds cracks in the exact same position better than pins. Or did the crack continue to grow longer than the pinned area? Which can also probably be fixed. But of course someone who actually saw it maybe knows better...
>> but other than superglue, I am not very confident that it can be fixed.
Was the crack not glue at all...?
Post Edited (2008-10-27 07:01)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-10-27 13:57
brightmoments wrote:
>"I am taking it back to the original repair shop, in hope that something can be done, but other than superglue, I am not very confident that it can be fixed".<
It's sad but both technicians you've mentioned don't understand what they are doing.
Properly fixed crack should be 99% undetectable.
BTW. Superglue is another (DIY) nonsense.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-27 14:34
"BTW. Superglue is another (DIY) nonsense."
Kinda funny that the majority of manufacturers use it!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-27 15:39
Vytas, can you please explain what do you think is the best method for repairing a crack?
Thanks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-27 17:12
Yeah, I'd like to hear that too.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-10-27 17:51
Chris P wrote:
>"Kinda funny that the majority of manufacturers use it"!<
The funny part coming from you is that manufacturers actually USE superglue to make a wooden clarinet. Do they use it to glue tenon corks or key cork these days?
Clarinets have been made way before this "magic glue" was even formulated. Great clarinets like "Centered Tone" or vintage R13 never seen a drop of super glue ever. So if some oboe finisher at TW Howard decides, for what ever reason, to use super glue it doesn't mean that superglue is REQUIRED for clarinet manufacturing or repair. Buffet, Selmer, Leblanc, Yamaha do not use any supper glue on their top-of-the-line clarinets.
The only useful application in clarinet repair would be to use super glue AND grenadilla dust to fill/glue the crack (extra reinforcement is required). Without grenadilla dust super glue is useless and time consuming nonsense. D.I.Y. stuff for armatures.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2008-10-27 18:01)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-27 19:21
"The funny part coming from you is that manufacturers actually USE superglue to make a wooden clarinet. Do they use it to glue tenon corks or key cork these days? "
No, it's mostly used along with wood dust as filler. We use Evo-Stik for key corks and tenon corks, and shellac for pads.
"So if some oboe finisher at TW Howard decides, for what ever reason, to use super glue it doesn't mean that superglue is REQUIRED for clarinet manufacturing or repair. Buffet, Selmer, Leblanc, Yamaha do not use any supper glue on their top-of-the-line clarinets."
You'll find that they DO - I have the proof right in front of me.
Sits and waits for some more witty retort from Mr. Crass.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-27 22:54
I'm always interested in how anyone (everyone) fixes cracks on clarinets or oboes, I'm thrilled to learn something that might work better than what I do. Chris and clarnibass, would you both also describe your methods as well as vytas?
Chris, what is it that's in front of you where a manufacturer is using super glue? Do they use it to glue in the tone holes? Just to fill in the cracks here and there?
My crack work is fairly simple, I pin the crack, then clean it and fill it with dust. Then I apply Hot Stuff glue, file and sand it to look and work pretty much like new.
I'm anxious to find out how everyone else approaches this repair. I would also love to attempt to repair that top joint, even if it has cracked a second time I would want to give it a try. I hope brightmoments does take it to someone else for a third opinion.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-28 13:13
"Chris, what is it that's in front of you where a manufacturer is using super glue? Do they use it to glue in the tone holes? Just to fill in the cracks here and there?"
It's mostly used during finishing to fill in imperfections (chips, pores or vessels) in tonehole bedplaces. The bedplaces are recut as a matter of course during finishing to expose fresh wood, then superglue is applied, then a sprinkling of wood dust and then the bedplace is recut to remove the excess glue/wood dust leaving a blemish-free bedplace which is what is needed for pads (especially cork pads) to seat onto.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: malanr
Date: 2008-10-28 17:55
Vytas,
I would like to know if you have any suggestions to where to start learning the trade of repair. Schools, local people, books?
Any help is appreciated!
Matt Reid
Just another muscian
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Author: Avie
Date: 2008-10-28 18:42
A couple of photo's of the crack would be a good thing right now to allow our BB techs to determine if the clarinet is salvageable, and if possible, what would be the best type of repair. It would be interesting to see and nice if we can save an elderly R13.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-10-28 20:58
Matt,
I do not know (or care) any local peple or repair schools, I haven't read a single book on repair. I took 2 year repair course in Europe when I was studying clarinet at the music conservatory there but I do not use conventional methods or tools to repair a clarinet (or to make mouthpieces) anymore. I moved on beyond that. I made myself many hand and measuring tools for mouthpiece and clarinet work. People are asking to describe my own methods all the time. I do not share this info anymore especially since someone stole some of my ideas and then represented them as his own.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-10-28 21:43
Chis P,
For some reason I feel that you are twisting this whole superglue issue.
Couple of posters mentioned superglue as possible crack repair. There was NO wood dust mentioned whatsoever. Here it is:
brightmoments wrote:
"I am taking it back to the original repair shop, in hope that something can be done, but other than superglue, I am not very confident that it can be fixed".
Ed Palanker wrote:
"I was going to suggest super glue but you mentioned it".
My response to this was:
"BTW. Superglue is another (DIY) nonsense".
Later I wrote:
"The only useful application in clarinet repair would be to use superglue AND grenadilla dust to fill/glue the crack (extra reinforcement is required). Without grenadilla dust superglue is useless and time consuming nonsense. D.I.Y. stuff for armatures."
Chris, If you are still not getting it my point was that superglue ALONE is not the way to do a repair.
Your response to the above was:
"You'll find that they DO - I have the proof right in front of me"
later you explained:
...."then superglue is applied, then a sprinkling of wood dust"....
I hope that this is just miscommunication from your part and nothing more.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-28 22:58
Vytas, there was no miscommunication on my part.
Now, would you be so kind as to explain in detail how YOU would go about repairing cracks - that's the question that has been asked, and as of yet you still haven't answered.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-10-28 23:11)
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-28 23:04
Vytas,
It's a shame that you feel used by someone along the way but I have always felt that sharing good ideas is a great way for the industry and the art of repairing clarinets to progress. After I apprenticed for two years I learned a great deal from several giants in the industry who felt that sharing their knowledge and expertise were essential for this industry/art to continue and would have shared their experience with anyone that asked.
I also would take on apprentices (and have for 24 years) in hopes of gifting some of my experience to the next generation of repair folks so that they do not have to experiment and repeat my mistakes.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-10-29 02:27
Chris P wrote:
"Vytas, there was no miscommunication on my part".
If you feel that way then there's nothing to talk about. Get lost!
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-29 05:38
"Get lost!"
Are you like this with everyone?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-29 07:05
Vytas, super glue was mentioned just as a hint for the repair, not as a complete explaination of how to do it, so it wasn't necessary to mention wood dust, etc. The same as suggesting to change a pad. You don't necessarily, on a forum, start explaining that the new pad needs to be glued. That doesn't mean that the person means there is no glue involved, especially when the person is obviously not a repairer like brightmomens or Ed Palanker (which you quoted).
So when you said "BTW. Superglue is another (DIY) nonsense" it suggests very generally, but especailly to those who are not repaireres, that ANY crack repair using super glue is a bad idea. In your original post you never mentioned wood dust so that was the only way to interpret your post.
>>Buffet, Selmer, Leblanc, Yamaha do not use any
>> supper glue on their top-of-the-line clarinets.
Which means, what exactly? I'm sure you too, like me, see many things on new instruments from at least some of those companies that can use a lot of improvement. But it's not true anyway. My Buffet clarinet has super glue put by the factory, and it's a top-of-the-line model.
>> Clarinets have been made way before this "magic glue" was
>> even formulated. Great clarinets like "Centered Tone" or
>> vintage R13 never seen a drop of super glue ever.
Exactly. These and other clarinets are older, and while cracks in wood clarinet remained the same during all that time, glues improved a lot. There are just much better glues today than there were in the past, which make them do a much better job today.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-29 20:35
Looks like hell will definitely freeze over before we get the answer we want. I bet more people know the Colonel's secret recipie than know of our little friend's crack repair method and materials used.
Now that's all out the way, back to the original subject matter.
If you know someone with a fairly recent R13, see if you can try their top joint on your clarinet (provided the tenon fits) - this will give you some indication as to what your clarinet may be like if you have a top joint transplant.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-10-29 21:58
A modern method of crack repair is to use carbon-fibre banding, its very much stronger than pinning. It also should be totally feasible even on a previously pinned instrument. Obviously the exact nature of the problem on your joint needs to be assessed by a competent repairer who is familiar with this technique. I learned my approach to this from NAPBIRT, try one of their members.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-29 23:18
flour, salt, MSG, ground black pepper, paprika, cayenne pepper, ground sage, ground coriander, ground thyme, garlic powder for coating. Let the chicken sit in a solution of water, salt and MSG for 20 minutes first though. (from the book - top secret recipes) extra crispy recipe.
No chickens were hurt during the investigation of this recipe, they died valiantly and painlessly. Now for something completely different, crack repair tips......
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-30 17:18
Here's one - superglue!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-10-30 19:41
with the carbon fibre banding you still have the issue of the crack still existing with pins in it. in this case the pins may prevent it from closing more.
quick repair - seal the existing crack(s) - also inexpensive
I don't use superglue nor paprika either for this type of fix
best repair - get the pins removed and have it redone
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-30 20:28
Yamaha don't recommend pinning cracks according to their most recent repair manual - the method they describe is scoring the crack with a knife to widen it, filling it with superglue and then cleaning it up once the superglue has gone off.
I suppose the carbon fibre banding has been inspired not only by flush banding of old, but maybe split shakuhachis that have been banded in a similar way to flush banding, but using either natural fibre (rattan) or carbon fibre binding set into slots cut around the joint instead of using metal bands.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-10-31 00:43
Is there a place where I can buy silver-plated jubilee clips (aka hose clamps)? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-10-31 04:57
Ben...although I know you're kidding some novices might think that the goal of crack repair is to close the crack by squeezing it , which, of course, is wrong.
(still can't get used to the designation...jubilee)
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-31 06:14
Ben, you can buy standard Jubilee clips and then have them silver plated to match the keywork.
I recommend 25 microns of silver as this gives a much more durable finish and adds more depth of tone once they're fitted.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-10-31 10:25
Oh, you were planning on using the s.p. J.c. as a ligature!
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-31 12:08
They're multi-purpose - either as a ligature or adjustable crack banding.
But if you want an invisible crack repair with a Jubilee clip, you could always paint them with black acrylic paint so no-one can tell your top joint has them fitted. Even close up they're undetectable, whereas superglue repairs always stick out like a sore thumb - it's like having a flashing neon sign pointing at the repair saying 'LOOK AT ME!' which can be seen on Google Earth.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2008-10-31 15:37
i've had to fix on pinned clarinet where it was visibly noticeable that there was a "step" in the bore from where it split and "squeezed" back together. Luckily it was a cheaper clarinet .. just some reaming vs removing the pins and resetting.
I believe Votaw is the place selling the carbon fiber banding method.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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