 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jexas
Date: 2008-10-21 18:03
Well now Ive regained the clari bug Im keen to learn more
Ive got my eye on an B+H Emperor and would very grateful if anyone can tell me more about its history as a model.
The guy selling it cant tell me a thing says it was left to him and he doesnt play, unfortunately I dont have any serial numbers as of yet and all I know is it looks quite old and is in a two piece case.
I have ben searching the forum for any info and did note that it was regarded as an intermediate model and was in earlier models actually identical to a 926? But later models were of a lesser quality. Can anyone confirm this change in terms of timescale?
The guy selling is asking for £80 about $160 i think. I know ideally I should see it in the flesh but the 450 miles travel is just too much so im wondering is it worth a punt? or should I just stick with the plastic edgware I just picked up for £50. If it did need an overhaul how much is that likely to cost?
Anyway wether I jump on it or not I would love to hear your views and any info/advice on the history of the emperor
Thanks all
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-10-21 18:56
A lot depends on the age of instrument. Many Emperors are made of composite materials (exact material again varies with time) but in essence the plastic Emperor is only a marginal improvement over the Edgeware.
The really early Emperors circa 1950's (ser nos 80,xxx to say 120,xxx are much higher grade models.
An overhaul would probably cost £100- £150 depends where done.
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Author: Jexas
Date: 2008-10-21 19:12
Thanks for the reply Norman
I do know that this one is a wooden model, would that make it an earlier model and a therefore a higher grade?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-10-21 22:55
Possibly, but still depends on age. If the body rings are of a simple design with basically 2 concave sections then it is probably a later model, the very early ones had rings very similar to those on a typical French clarinet.
Having said that, even a later wooden Emporer would be better than a plastic Edgware.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-22 04:12
I recently tried a wood Emperor from probably the 50s. I would say that intonation was reasonable for most notes, the overall sound was nice, but it had more than a usual amount of stuffy and out of tune notes, and generally it was a bit too resistant IMO. I remember trying a new student Yamaha clarinet the same day and preferred it considerably over the Emperor. The condition is also important, for example this Emeror had loose posts, etc. (before it was fixed).
I don't have experience with the Edgware so I can't compare, but for such a low price the Emperor might be worth it, but probably needs a major repair (or not).
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-10-22 14:15
Try checking the underside of the right hand C sharp/F sharp and B/E keys. The cheaper model shows a hollow in these keys. I do not think the earlier better ones had that hollow. They may have made later ones without the hollow, but my ones had the hollow. This was, I think, a cost cutting exercise.
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Author: Jexas
Date: 2008-10-24 16:12
Hi all
Thank for the info and tips
Norman: Are you referring to the body connecting rings? as Ive only seen two types on B+H so far the flat type Ive seen on a pair of 1010's and the ridged type on many others or do you mean the finger key rings?
The one im looking a has the ridged type.
Clarnibass: Im surprised to hear that you thought the student yamaha was better than the Emporer as everything Ive read on the Emporer indicates that its suppose to be an intermediate model equivalent to an E13 or yamaha 450?
But as you stated it did have loose posts perhaps it needed a good service?
Graham: I managed to contact the guy and from what I could gather it seems the keys are all solid, but cant tell if there nickel plate or silver plate.
Did B+H produce a nickel plate Emporer?
Does anyone know what year Boosey started reducing the quality of the Emporer?
On another note I did mention that I had a plastic Edgeware but on reading some of the posts on this forum Im not sure if its ebonite or if thats one and the same thing ? Is there a difference? How can you tell?
Thanks again to all for your invaluable advice cheers.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-24 16:27
Early Edgwares (up to around 1960ish) were in wood or ebonite, the later ones (post-1960ish) were in wood or PVC (turned with inset ebonite tonehole chimneys) in both Bb and A.
Ebonite (hard rubber) turns greeny-brown over time and smells like rotten eggs (sulphur), whereas the PVC ones turn grey and get a white bloom on the surface.
B&H may have made some later (post-1960ish) Edgwares in bakelite (phenol resin or Marinyl?) as well, though I haven't seen them, but I have seen an Emperor in bakelite (SP keys and says 'Emperor' on it).
Late-'70s to early-'80s Regents were in ABS. Then replaced when production stopped in N.London with the Schreiber-built Regent II (which was previously the plastic 'Evette') which became the Buffet B12 around 1986.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-24 18:03
Jexas, sorry if I wasn't clear. I was describing the B&H Emperor after a full service. It certainly wasn't as good as any Buffet E13 I've tried. New E11s I've tried recently also played better. Butthe price of this B&H Emperor, including the service, was much less. Of course it's possible it was just a bad one, and others are considerably better. I know some people like old instruments, and there are great and bad new instruments and the same for old instruments, but generally I think clarinets developed a lot and many old instruments are a bit overated.... which of course doesn't mean the Emperor you can buy is bad, or that you shouldn't buy it.
Post Edited (2008-10-25 04:45)
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-10-25 11:24
My best guess is 1974 for the date of the downgrade. I am not aware of any nickel plated emperors but I suppose they might have existed.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-10-25 22:18
I don't have firm data but would put the date of downgrade as much earlier possibly early 60's.
The early Emperors were nickel plated (perhaps the main physical differentiation between them and the Imperials).
Re question earlier - I was referring to the actual body rings i.e. those on the barrel and bell as well as main joints, they were sort of halfway between the ridged rings and the flat rings on 926/1010 Imperials.
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Author: Jexas
Date: 2008-10-26 12:18
Hi guys as you might of guessed this is all a sharp learning curve for me and im trying to absorb as much as I can from all of you before parting with my hard earned cash!
Thanks for all the replies so far as im sure your posts will help others in my position.
Chris: Judging from your descriptions I think my edgware maybe a bakelite as its a 1968-69 model and I can see no signs of green or sniffs of rotten eggs but I do have a bit of a cold at the moment and no signs of white bloom, although maybe its just been well looked after? I dont suppose theres an acid test of some sort that wont dammage it?
Clarnibass: Thanks for clarifying, like you said some good old some bad and the same for new. I probably should be braver and venture into the unknown and try something new but I dont know what it is that draws me to B+H probably just some romantic notion of nolstaga based on I dont know what really! Oh apart from my very tight budget of course.
Norman: Thanks again I'd love to see some pictures of the different body rings if you have any,or anybody else has any posted anywhere?
As I mentioned earlier the emporer im looking at comes in a two part case eg top section,barrell,mouthpiece in one half of the case bottom section and bell in the other. As oppossed to all the parts being seperated in the case If the case is the original would this indicate its age or quality?
Thanks again for your time everyone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-26 12:54
"Chris: Judging from your descriptions I think my edgware maybe a bakelite as its a 1968-69 model and I can see no signs of green or sniffs of rotten eggs but I do have a bit of a cold at the moment and no signs of white bloom, although maybe its just been well looked after? I dont suppose theres an acid test of some sort that wont dammage it?"
If you look at the joints on bakelite B&H clarinets close up in good light, they should have a uniform colour with glossy surface finish that's slightly irregular (not completely flat) and also a tight granular, speckled appearance. They're also heavier than they look.
Ebonite will be uniformally dull and the colour is variable from one part to another - it's usually darker under keys and green/brown on exposed surfaces.
ABS clarinets have a smooth, high gloss jet black finish and are light in weight.
PVC bodied ones have light visible turning marks on the surface and a dull grey finish. The inset tonehole chimneys on these are ebonite so they should have a green/brown colour to them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-10-27 08:08
There may have been several "downgrades" of the Emperor, but one of them was in the mid 1970s. It sounds like yous is an earlier one, and more likely to be a good one as a result.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-27 08:28
Most downgrading/cost cutting went on in the '70s - it's the era of shoddy workmanship.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jexas
Date: 2008-11-09 20:09
Attachment: Boosey&Hawkes-Emperor.jpg (46k)
Well I decided to risk it and thought Id report back with a picture for you all,If Normans right about the body rings and I dont doubt he is then my new emporer is perhaps a later model. Anyway to my untrained eye it looked ok and in comparison to my bakelite edgware well there is none the tone is fantastic and for £80 im a happy bunny! Probably could do with a repad and cork so im going to practise that on my edgware before attempting it on this one. On another note probably should be another thread and I have trawled the forum for some answers about bore oil but can anyone reccomend the best bore oil to use and where to get it from in the uk,or do ihave to get the famous drs products shipped over from the US?
Thanks again
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-11-09 20:18
Looks very good value for £80.
Yes those are the second generation rings and you also have the standard shape side Eb/Bb key (better than the long key introduced c 1963.)
Almond oil (available any good chemists) is a perfectly good bore oil, just apply very lightly.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-09 20:41
That's £80 well spent there!
When overhauling, give it plenty of venting and use much thinner key corks than B&H used (although keep the amount of natural cork down to a minimum - use rubberised cork, felt or ultrasuede as these will last much longer).
Set the ventings as near to Yamaha's specifications so it won't be stuffy:
Lower joint:
E/B key - 3.6
F#/C# key - 3.5 (determined by venting on E/B key)
F/C key - 3.2 (determined by venting on E/B key)
Ab/Eb key - 2.7
RH ring - 2.7
B/F# (sliver) key - 2.7
Upper joint:
C#/G# key - 2.5
Eb/Bb (sliver) key - 2.5
D/A (LH2) ring (or E/B vent) - 2.5 (determined by venting on RH rings)
E/B (LH1) ring (or G vent) - 2.1
Side Eb/Bb - 2.5
Side F# - 2.5
Bb (lower) trill - 2.3
C (upper) trill - 2.3
A lever (throat A key) - 2.2
G# lever (throat G# key) - 2.1 (determined by venting on throat A key and amount of double action between the A key and adjusting screw)
Register key - 1.8 (though personally I prefer somehwere between 2 and 2.5mm)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-11-10 05:38
wow chris, you really are a great contributor to this forum. keep up the good work
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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