 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-10-16 02:05
I just had a lesson today where I was told, and felt for myself, that the left hand F/C key on newer (last 3 or 4 years) R13s has a huge "dive" before coming to a stop. My R13 is about a year old and i tried an early 1990 model R13 to see the difference. The earlier R13 had a distance of about 1/4 of an inch where the newer is about 1/2 of an inch. The newer R13 is in good adjusment and there is no play in that key or any around it for that matter. It is a handicap that cannot be fixed through practice...so for once it isn't me!!!
Is there any way to have that adjusted to remove some of that distance? It is really becoming a pain now that I am aware of it.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-16 02:12
Hmm.... My R13s exhibit the opposite behavior. My 1989 R13 (in Bb) has more play in that key than my 2008 R13 (in A).
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-10-16 02:17
I looked at my R13, built in 2006, the one from the early 1990s and one from the late 60s...mine doesn't have play, just a large travel before closing the pad. bad ergonomics
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-16 02:21
That's what I meant by play: large travel before closing the pad.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-10-16 02:51
a good tech can bend the keys a bit to suit your preferences
careful you don't mess up the tuning or make some notes stuffy or fuzzy sounding
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2008-10-16 03:56
I just compared several brand new R13's to one that is 40 years old (and just overhauled). The amount of travel is almost exactly the same.
I am not disagreeing with what you saw, I'm just saying that I have worked with, and set up, dozens of R13's and have not seen the same problem.
In any case, the amount of travel of this key is easily adjusted by a competent repair tech.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
World class mouthpieces for less
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-16 04:27
Some possibilities why this can happen:
- Are you sure there is no play in the linkage, key and lever? Any free play in any of these might make the travel longer, even someting like too soft and thick linkage material might do it.
If there is no free play anywhere:
- The F/C lever touch piece is bent too far from the hinge.
- There is a problem in the linkage. For example if the contact point is closer to the lever side and far away from the key side it will make the travel longer.
- The key is more open and you don't really notice that from the right pinky key. You can check if it's too open.
On two R13s I just compared the last reason is mainly causing a difference. The travel at the edge of the lever touch piece is 6mm for one and 5mm for the other.
By the way, many clarinets have a bad linkage design where the lever side has a sharp edge that will eat through the linkage material. On Buffet R13 it's not the worse but still not very good. Especially if using a bad material like natural cork or similar.
Here is a link that Gordon (from this forum) gave me, showing how the best this linakge should be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involute_gear
Modifying a linkage to this is a bit too much, so usually best to round the sharp edge (not too much) and use correct material (and not too thick).
Nitai
Post Edited (2008-10-16 04:33)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2008-10-16 05:25
Repaired a virtually new E-11 today with this "excessive travel" problem. Poor set up by Buffet, hard to believe this got past the inspectors. A piece of thick teflon on the contact point righted this quite neatly.
Jerry
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-16 12:35
If Buffet made the small connecting lever on the RH F/C key thicker (more metal on the underside), then that will solve the problem immediately - if it was thicker by up to 1mm, then that would do the trick.
There's far too much of a gap when both adjoining surfaces of the linkage are parallel (which they should be when at rest) which means fitting a thick piece of hard silencing material on the underside of the RH F/C key linkage.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-10-16 13:22
"...We are playing a 21st century instrument with 17th century technology..." Tom Ridenour
...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-16 15:17
Some aspects may still be in the 17th Century, but production methods in France have evolved leaving other makers in other countries behind - although most have caught up now. And having all manner of technology at the manufacturers' disposal should mean better designed and made pieces.
I'm not sure if the RH F/C key is cast in one piece or made up from various cast, CNC milled and turned parts, but if the small connecting lever on the back of the F/C key is milled from sheet metal, then all it'll take is a simple change in the programme to alter the shape of that piece.
If it's a casting, then the master could be altered by soldering a piece of metal to the underside of the linkage piece to make it thicker.
I'll just add that it's not just newer Buffets that have this trouble - it's been going on for decades and has never been rectified. On some older Buffets I've even stuck a piece of plastic cut from a Vandoren or Rico reed holder on the underside of the linkage to make the LH F/C key feel more positive.
When there's too much play betweent he LH F/C key and the linkage piece, the tip of the underlever cuts through the silencing material. There shouldn't be any need to have a ridiculously thick piece of silencing material on the underside as this only makes the LH F/C key feel spongy if there's too much give in the material, and too firm a material only creates unwanted noise.
So a bit more metal in the right places and a thinner (but tough) silencing material is the answer (even though Buffet do use Rubco on this linkage, it still doesn't stand up to having a sharp edge digging into it).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-10-16 22:42
I frequently find that I have to solder a thin metal shim on to one or other parts of the linkage to reduce the gap so that only a very thin silencer shim is needed, anything thick and spongy is a disaster.
Soldering shim to lower part of linkage also effectively moves the fulcrum point closer to the axle and has effect of raising the "gearing" and giving a snappier action if that is needed.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-19 02:14
ChrisP- "On some older Buffets I've even stuck a piece of plastic cut from a Vandoren or Rico reed holder on the underside of the linkage to make the LH F/C key feel more positive."
--- I use a thin sliver of thin plastic too. A piece of flat spring could be used too.
"When there's too much play betweent he LH F/C key and the linkage piece, the tip of the underlever cuts through the silencing material. There shouldn't be any need to have a ridiculously thick piece of silencing material on the underside as this only makes the LH F/C key feel spongy if there's too much give in the material, and too firm a material only creates unwanted noise. "
--- Not only can it affect the feel, but the corner of the LH lever can dig into the material and get stuck. Then the key won't open quickly when you let go of it. This can also happen on the thumb key/front ring key linkage on the top joint.
In my opinion, there should be NO gap and NO silencing material on the LH C lever. There is no musical situation that I can think of in which you would use the RH C and then push the lever to switch to the LH C.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-19 04:07
>> In my opinion, there should be NO gap and NO silencing material on the
>> LH C lever. There is no musical situation that I can think of in which
>> you would use the RH C and then push the lever to switch to the LH C.
Actually that can happen, but anyway, by no silencing material do you mean metal to metal contact, and no gap? That means every time you press the right pinky F/C and let go it will click against the F/C lever side. No gap at all will do that obviously, and a tiny gap will be noisy when pressing the left F/C lever (and even the most durable material will eventually compress slightly from under the F/C lever which you need anyway). Maybe I didn't understand what you meant...?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-19 05:35
I agree with Nitai - if there is no silencing material on the linkage, the RH F/C key will make an audiable click on its return.
Norman's method of making the underlever longer on the top side is a good one as it means less travel on the LH F/C touch.
What you don't want in the linkage is too much contact between both adjoining surfaces beyond the fulcrum (on the other side of the LH F/C key barrel) as this can be just as irritating as having too much play.
Reason being that the RH F/C key can rest on the far side and that can create a gap on the 'business side' of the linkage causing double action. So if you are making an alteration to the F/C linkage, make it on the side that matters and leave some clearance on the opposite side.
That's why I filed an angle on the top side of the underlever on the far side of the key barrel (on a combined LH F/C-Ab/Eb key I made for an Eaton International), so the overlever from the RH F/C key won't be resting on the wrong side of the linkage as seen here (to the right of the picture on the underside as the key is upside down)
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/CP1/03.jpg
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-10-19 05:37)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-19 08:03
Well, I use a sliver of plastic, so it's metal on plastic contact. Perhaps 'NO gap' was wrong to say- more like 'almost no gap'. In my ideal adjustment, the 2 keys will (just barely) not touch. The RH F/C is stopped by the crow's foot.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-19 08:47
So you do have a silencing material "a sliver of plastic". Your previous post made it sound like it's metal to metal contact. That's what I missed... because it wasn't there 
>> Reason being that the RH F/C key can rest on the far side and that can
>> create a gap on the 'business side' of the linkage causing double action.
Sometimes, if the material is too thick or squishy, and the lever side has a sharp edge that digs into the cork, it will leave a dimple. Then it will lean on the other side as you mentioned, but instead of creating double action, it will actually not, but just make the lever travel longer. At least with double action you know something is wrong
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