 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2008-10-10 18:07
Is there a practice session limit beyond which additional repetitions of a given pattern/exercise provide diminished returns?
I've been thinking about this in my quest to improve the efficiency of my practice sessions. In a given week I'm working on method book exercises, scale patterns and a Rose etude, and as an adult learner it takes considerable time to get these under my fingers. I try to structure my practice sessions to include some time for each, but wonder if focusing more time on fewer things each day vs spending some time on each thing would make a difference in how fast it gets into motor memory. Is there a short-term/long-term motor memory transition that needs time to occur no matter how many repetitions get done in a day? Is there a number of repetitions beyond which little additional advantage is gained on that day? If so, any idea what an optimal number of repetitions would be? Fatigue/attention span are obvious limiting factors, but is there a physiological efficiency element too?
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-10-10 18:32
Slow and EVEN practicing is ALWAYS the best way to learn a difficult passage and eventually increase speed.
I teach and use the "9+1 method" (sometimes called "The Rule of 10")
Play the difficult passage(s) at a slow but EVEN speed. Try to do this 9 consecutive times. On the 10th attempt increase the speed one click of the metronome.
If that does not work, repeat the passage another 9 times at a slow and even speed. On the 10th attempt, again try it at an increased speed.
There is never a substitute for practicing with EVEN and CONTROLLED fingers. Only that way will you be able to see the inconsistancies in your fingering and determine how each finger muscle works. Over time, the speed will eventually come.
BTW - Many fingering problems are caused by fingers that are too high off the keys. Keep the fingers close when you practice slowly and evenly...GBK
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2008-10-10 19:32
Anne,
I may not have the answers to all your questions, but as an adult re-learner I can sympathize.
I went to my weekly lesson, this morning, after a week of frustrating practice. I live in the Northeast, as you do, apparently, and the cooler, drier weather of late has made a chore out of finding a supple, playable reed.
I am working in an intermediate book on major keys and their relative minors, and also playing various etudes, Rose among them. This week, in my rush to become better in a hurry, I discovered (finally, at my lesson) that I had been essentially reading note-to-note, and racing through one excerise and another, only occasionally stopping to focus on a troublesome passage. It's the haste-makes-waste school of clarinet practicing.
So...I asked my teacher if I might spend an extra week on the same material, slowing down, focusing, perfecting. Essentially, it's what GBK is saying. And prior experience tells me it will work. In other words, sweat the small stuff, and slowly, methodically.
I have found that slowing down, or taking a second week on a lesson, isn't as remedial and shameful as I had thought it might be. I've done this once or twice before, to good effect. And the lessons are the better for it.
From your message, it sounds as if you are as passionate about the instrument as I am. And you have probably become aware that, as my teacher says, "There is no end to the clarinet," meaning that you never stop learning. It has taught me patience. It's humbling. But I have yet to give up the notion that someday one might actually string a few notes together in a way that approximates the sound of, say, Harold Wright.
We all have our fantasies.
A search of the bulletin board will turn up many interesting threads on the nature of practicing and age and frustration. Lots of frustration. There's lots of good advice, but you may also find it soothing, as in misery loves company.
Best of luck.
Post Edited (2008-10-10 19:34)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-10-10 19:44
While it is not exactly the same, i have fond that limiting your practice sessions to shorter time periods, repeated a few times a day can also help. After a certain amount of time trying to train your mind and fingers, the brain will rebel and your concentration starts to drift. .
While learning Morse Code, I found that the ideal sessions for me were no more than 30 minutes, repeated a few times a day. You may find that something similar to this will benefit your learning, if you also do it the way Glenn listed above.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2008-10-10 19:45)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-10 20:38
DrH2O wrote:
<<Is there a practice session limit beyond which additional repetitions of a given pattern/exercise provide diminished returns?>>
I think there is, although I don't think there's a magic number that tells you when to stop working on something and go on to something else. Sometimes, if you feel like you've hit a wall, it's a good idea to work on something else and come back to the previous spot later--oftentimes, I find that when I do this, the problems I had before go away. In general I think it's a good idea after you've been working on a passage for a while to switch over to something else for a few minutes and then return to it later on in your practice session. I also find that a little bit of mental practice without the instrument in hand (where you imagine your finger movements)is a useful supplement to actual practice with the instrument.
What you don't want to do is to practice mistakes. So if you start getting worse, not better, you need to take a break or at least work on something else for a while.
Practicing slowly and gradually increasing the tempo, as GBK recommends, is (in my opinion) the best way to practice, and I think the 9+1 method is a really good way to do that.
There are other techniques that you can try, though, besides straight repetition, that can supplement your practice, especially if you feel you're hitting a wall. If you have a slurred passage, try playing it tongued (or vice versa). If your tongue and fingers are out of sync, I find varying the rhythm (first playing long-short dotted rhythms, followed by short-long, followed by the rhythm as written) helps tremendously. (Caveat: Some folks, including some very fine players/teachers, think this rhythm change exercise is a bad idea and actually counterproductive. Other people, including a number of people who play much better than I do, find it works for them. If you find it works for you, that's great. If not, my feelings won't be hurt if you don't use it.)
Tony Pay also has a great "three finger exercise" that he uses in his own practice, which works well for learning awkward finger transitions:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=218262&t=218262
BTW, I just thought I'd mention that not everybody agrees on the finger height issue. Some people (myself included) think that low fingers are better thought of as an occasional side effect of good technique rather than an objective unto themselves. Sometimes you need your fingers low, but sometimes low fingers (especially if you're exerting too much effort to keep them low) can actually slow you down. There is no hard and fast rule regarding finger height, in my opinion.
At any rate (to avoid unproductive repetition) there's a good thread about this topic where Tony Pay provides a good systematic approach to figuring this kind of thing out:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=282168&t=281877
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-10 21:03
JJAlbrecht wrote:
<<While learning Morse Code, I found that the ideal sessions for me were no more than 30 minutes, repeated a few times a day. You may find that something similar to this will benefit your learning, if you also do it the way Glenn listed above.>>
A fellow ham!  I wonder how many more of us there are on here? The only other clarinet-playing ham I'm aware of was Robert Marcellus AA9CA (SK), but there have to be plenty more of us out there, I imagine (including internationally).
73 N8WR DE AD5VH
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-10-11 01:22
Yep.... de N8WR. Got my Extra the old-fashioned way.... 20 wpm. Unlike those no-code weenies nowadays! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) We have several other current or former clarinet players in my radio club, including a member of this board, Dee (N8UZE). N8QVS and AB8CI were clarinet players in their former lives before they finished high school. We used to have a Wednesday afternoon clari-net ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) for the clarinet folks on the local repeater, as I was waiting for my daughter to get done with her clarinet lessons.
73,
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2008-10-11 01:30)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-11 01:50
GBK-"Play the difficult passage(s) at a slow but EVEN speed. Try to do this 9 consecutive times. On the 10th attempt increase the speed one click of the metronome."
I have seen you mention this before. When you increase the speed, by how much should you increase it?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-10-11 02:31
skygardener wrote:
> When you increase the
> speed, by how much should you increase it?
One metronome click = 4 bpm
...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-10-11 04:34
I remember someone putting on this board a paraphrase of a famous pianist. The pianist was asked how he learns a dificult and fast passage. The reply was something along the lines of, "I practice it over and over again at half tempo. And when it comes time to perform, it comes out naturally at full speed".
When I practice my scales as of late, I practice them at a slow and even tempo. Recently I tested myself to see how quickly I could play them evenly. I was surprised that I could play them much quicker evenly, even though I haven't worked them up little by little. I probably could go faster by using GBKs method, but I think it's a testament to the "practice slowly and correctly" instead of hammering away HOPING to get something at full speed. Now if only I could convince myself to do this with pieces of music!!!! . . . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2008-10-11 15:58
Thanks for all the comments. I try to practice slowly to avoid practicing mistakes, and am trying GBK's 9+1 suggestion, but find that on anything more than a few measures, my attention tends to wander and mistakes start to creep in before I complete 9 repetitions. Maybe I need to tackle smaller chunks or as other posters suggested take breaks from it to stay focused.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the transition from short-term to long-term muscle memory?
Weberfan - thanks for the words of encouragement. More often than not I spend 2 weeks (or more) on most things except the really short finger exercises. I think I spent at least 4 weeks on a particular diminished 7th exercise. As someone who is simultanaeously learning to read music and play the clarinet, my brain gets a major workout from each new piece. My teacher is very supportive though and I appreciate that she holds me to a high standard and doesn't sugar-coat things when I need to do more work on something.
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-10-11 21:21
I always practice things in small chunks. It's harder to make progress when you are repeating too long a passage. I often break things down into 5 note groups (e.g., 4 sixteenth notes and the following note), then connect the groups. If you start by repeating long passages, you can end up working on too many things at once.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2008-10-12 00:41
Back on the original topic, I think one thing that distinguishes some talented players is the ability to practice productively for many hours a day. Physically and mentally they stay juiced for it long after others of us would put the thing away for the day, pretty much exhausted. Note in the Ricardo interview he mentions how many hours he practiced as a child the first day he touched his clarinet. What'd he say, four and a half hours? I managed that much today, it being Saturday, but I don't feel much at all like another session this evening. I'm full. People like Ricardo are probably continuously hungry.
I suspect that intent as well as circumstances around one could improve the aforementioned ability. You just have to, uh, practice it. :-)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-10-12 14:04
I also notice the wandering-attention phenomenon, especially after many repetitions of passages at slow and careful speed.
When I find myself in that difficulty ("Let's see, do I need anything from the supermarket? Was that the mailman outside? What's that darn cat up to now!") I usually re-focus on the material at hand, and listen harder to what I'm doing. If THAT doesn't work, it's time for a break!
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Author: zrg86
Date: 2008-10-13 18:49
I use the 6 times slow, 1 time fast method (4 clicks or so higher). Do this cycle 3 times. For some reason the muscle memory centers of the brain react well to 21 repetitions in this manner. REALLY working well with the Nielsen concerto.
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