 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: willpow
Date: 2008-10-05 05:26
The metal rings on my barrels, bells, and lower joints of many of my wood clarinets have come loose. Some are so lose that they fall right off, others just spin. Also the metal at the end of the bells also move. Some of my clarinets/barrels are newer others are quite old. I have Buffet and Leblanc clarinets/barrels. I recently moved to a new house a few miles away and I live in a area with some climate varation, although not extreme. Does anyone have anly idea what would cause this and how to fix it? Is it ok to glue them? Thanks.
Will
Post Edited (2008-10-05 20:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-05 05:41
This is caused by a drop in humidity - the wood shrinks and the socket rings (and bell ring) become loose.
Please, do NOT assemble your clarinets while the rings are loose as you can split the sockets. You should have them refitted properly by a tech as soon as is possible.
Also, use a humidifyer (Dampit, etc.) in each joint to keep the humidity level up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-05 07:24
After looking into almost all and trying most of the methods to fix this, without getting into the reason why, I decided the method I prefer is the one suggested by Gordon from this forum, which is to glue them with shellac. That's a shellac stick, and not any liquid type that is mixed with alcohol, etc. A repairer can do this in a few minutes and probably wouldn't cost a lot.
For the bottom of the bell ring, is it loose enough to be wobble? Does it turn 360 degrees? Or does it just mvoe a little when you try, only a short distance? Unless it moves in a disturbing way or make a noise, etc. when you play, I'd consider leaving it alone (although you can probably have it fixed anyway).
Post Edited (2008-10-05 07:32)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-10-05 18:14
if you do go the glue route, remember, less is more.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: willpow
Date: 2008-10-05 19:10
Thank you all for the information and advice. I was also able to search for and find Gordon's post on this forum which also contained a long discussion on this topic.
I think I will get some Dampit and try to humidify my clarinets first. For the rings that aren't too loose, I will try a little shellac. Most of the bell rings don't move much so I hope I can leave those alone. For the looser rings, I will take them to a tech and have them refitted. Thanks again.
Will
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-10-05 20:16
"Also, use a humidifyer (Dampit, etc.) in each joint to keep the humidity level up."
-----------------------------------------------
Only if you want to explode your instrument. Never, ever put a dampit inside the Clarinet as that makes the inside way, way too humid (outside stays dry) and can cause a major problem.
Consider getting a Humistat, maybe even 2 for the cases to get the instruments to the right humidity level. I don't like dampit's as they dry out too quickly.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-10-05 21:32
Hi Will - noting your location, recalling an over- nite stop in Auburn, and having a son and family in San Jose, I believe your loose ring problem is the result of quite low relative humidity and the drying-out of clar wood. So, a Search of our previous comments on case/inst humidification may be desireable. I take empty pill bottles, cut open the top, insert a piece of wet kitchen sponge and place in the case, in the bell if possible. Works fine in our Okla in its dry winter season for my good woods. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-05 22:00
Are Dampits really that bad?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-05 23:23
willpow
I have had extremely good luck with the rings on clarinets using Chris P's method, get humidity into your clarinet right away. DO NOT use glue to put them back on in any form, no super glue, no shellac glue, no glue at all. None of these will keep things where they belong long term and the joints very well could split and crack without proper support.
If your clarinet will not fully expand to where it was, have someone properly shrink the rings, yes, that can be done easily but only after you try your best to get the wood back to it's correct size. If the outside of your instrument is that small that the rings are loose, the inside bore is also way too large by now and oblong, not cylindrical. For your clarinet to play properly in tune and get a good response, it needs to be round on the inside (not accounting for the taper) and the right dimensions too.
Glue will NOT help you, please get started with the humidity process and then get professional help (not mental) if they will not fit properly again.
I have had great luck with dampits (they come in all sizes and names from different companies), pieces of kitchen sponge, small canisters of clay, all sorts of things work well. It is possible to get too much humidity into your clarinet, if you get too much into the wood it will swell and the joints will become tight to a point where they might not come apart after rehearsal.
In order to avoid problems with that (and in Arizona I can't imagine you could get too much humidity into the wood) get a humidistat to find out what the level is INSIDE the case. Above 30% is pretty good, over 50% might be too much.
I don't mean to step on anyone's toes but glue will not work and it never has, I have fixed way too many cracked clarinets after someone tried to glue the rings back on.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-10-06 01:35
I got a Humistat and a case hygrometer for winter months in Michigan from the Doctor's Products site: http://www.doctorsprod.com
If the wood could use some oiling, he also produces and sells Bore Doctor and GrenadOil, both great products.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-10-06 03:48
Getting moisture to the area of the Clarinet is what you need to do. Putting the Dampit inside the Clarinet is a no no, outside is fine. What I find with those is that they dry out too quickly. Too much moisture, then too little unless I babysit it often. Something like the humistat you only have to fill weekly or so, not daily.
Make sure that you put the rings back on correctly - they go on in one direction correctly. If you put them on reverse there most likely will be a slight gap at the top of the joint that you can feel.
Another method is putting a small amount of cheesecloth under the rings and then add the proper humidity.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-10-07 15:49
sbrodt wrote:
"... DO NOT use glue to put them back on in any form, no super glue, no shellac glue, no glue at all... If your clarinet will not fully expand to where it was, have someone properly shrink the rings, yes, that can be done easily but only after you try your best to get the wood back to it's correct size."
Shrinking the rings is a permanent process. Using shellac as an adhesive filler has exactly the same effect - except it cannot be overdone! - and at least can easily be undone at a later stage if the instrument is moved to reside in a more humid place, without resorting to a lathe.
".. None of these will keep things where they belong long term... "
My customers don't live in the climate extremes of Arizona, and I don't know if the clarinet in question does either, but when I have used shellac, the result has ALWAYS been to "keep things where they belong long term"
".... and the joints very well could split and crack without proper support... "
Splitting (= cracking?) is a likely result of NOT dealing with loose rings. Secure rings do not cause splits.
"... If the outside of your instrument is that small that the rings are loose, the inside bore is also way too large by now.."
If that were the case, then it would be way sharp by now (ambient air temperature being equal). Easy to say in theory, but is this the case for this particular clarinet? I once measured the socket diameter of a barrel (with rings), then soaked it for many hours in water, and re-measured. There was no significant change in ID.
When a metal or plastic washer is shrunk (by cooling), the ID gets smaller along with the OD. Sure, timber behaves a bit differently when it shrinks, presumably because of the cellular structure, but it seems to me that the end result is not much change in socket diameter for grenadilla where rings are involved.
But by all means, try a humidifying system if you live in a climate extreme.
Otherwise, I don't think there is too much harm in securing the rings (or adjusting OD of jamming tenons if necessary) to suit the climate the clarinet lives in. We don't all live in the microclimate of the Buffet factory!
"... I don't mean to step on anyone's toes but glue will not work and it never has... "
"Never" is an extreme word. my experience proves the statement to be false.
"... I have fixed way too many cracked clarinets after someone tried to glue the rings back on..."
again, I don't live in Arizona, but I have never encountered gluing of rings causing cracks. Indeed, of the dozens of cracks I have encountered over the decades, I have never encountered a crack adjacent to a secure ring. So there seems to be something wonky about the perceived cause and effect here.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-09 20:06
Gordon NZ
I have been reading a sax board and there’s someone named Gordon that contributes to that board quite often, the sax tech that works next to me in the shop often mentions his entries as refreshing and one of the few that has some good sense. We all need to keep an open mind when repairing, you never know when someone will come up with results that are better, faster and beneficial to the customer in every way and following that lead can only make you a better tech.
<<<<<Shrinking the rings is a permanent process.<<<<
The rings could be expanded at a later date if needed but the repair in this case needs to follow a proper order, get the clarinet back to proper humidity levels and as close to it’s original shape first, then if needed shrink the rings.
<<<<Using shellac as an adhesive filler has exactly the same effect>>>>
Not quite. Shellac glue does a pretty good job holding a pad to a key or cork to the body but there’s not as much strain or change at those points. Shellac is quite brittle and since the wood will expand and contract the very second you start to blow warm air through it or start to swab it out, there’s always a good chance that the stress will crack, or even crush the brittle glue. Since we are talking about wood, that happens a great deal.
If the wood shrinks any more (after the glue is put on) the rings will fall off again, that glue doesn’t stick to the metal rings all that well. If one section of the clarinet starts to expand back to it’s original dimensions, the male socket could crush the glue and crack the female socket as well.
<<<<<when I have used shellac, the result has ALWAYS been to "keep things where they belong long term">>>>
Sorry, no glue can so that, even an epoxy with a great deal more adhesive power to wood and steel will never keep them together long term, especially if the humidity levels keep changing and the levels are not evened out. Shellac gets old and more brittle with age.
<<<<<If that were the case, then it would be way sharp by now (ambient air temperature being equal). Easy to say in theory,>>>>
Sometimes it can be a little confusing but as the clarinet wood shrinks on the outside, the bore gets bigger on the inside, not smaller. The bigger the inside bore the flatter the instrument will get. In every case, as we prepare to play a concert we all warm up, not just to get ready to play but to get the instrument up to pitch. There’s nothing odd or new here, any wooden instrument will start to expand and get higher in pitch as we start to play, the warm, moist breath we put into the clarinet makes it expand.
<<<<<is this the case for this particular clarinet?>>>>
This is the case for every clarinet, plastic, metal and wood.
<<<I once measured the socket diameter of a barrel (with rings), then soaked it for many hours in water, and re-measured. There was no significant change in ID.<<<<<
I’m sorry to say your research is not very well controlled. You need to know the level of humidity in the clarinet before you start, then measure it again after you soak it, then have the proper instruments to test the inside bore (that would be a correct mandrel for that bore and instrument). A slight change of 1/1000th of an inch would change the intonation and that would be difficult to measure properly without the correct tools. Getting a device to measure the amount of moisture in the wood is less difficult, there are devices that send electric current through the wood to measure the amount of moisture, the more water the more easily the current travels through the wood.
<<<a metal or plastic washer is shrunk (by cooling), the ID gets smaller along with the OD. Sure, timber behaves a bit differently<<<
I didn’t quite understand your statement here. Sorry.
<<<<We don't all live in the microclimate of the Buffet factory!>>>>
Yes, the atmosphere is quiet different all over the world and we all need to do our best to keep the wood stabile so that the changes that occur when we play (swelling) and then swab out (shrinking) the clarinet/oboe will stay fairly close to it’s original size and shape. Getting humidity into the wood where it’s very dry (Arizona) and getting some out in the more humid parts of the world is not impossible but it is quite necessary.
<<<<I have never encountered a crack adjacent to a secure ring. So there seems to be something wonky about the perceived cause and effect here.<<
Just because you have not experienced this, doesn’t mean it has not happened, we all need to keep an open mind.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-10 00:34
It's much better to shim very loose rings than it is to shrink rings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2008-10-10 01:56
I've shimmed rings with bits of scotch tape; works really well. I read about this in a 1960's Buffet-Crampon clarinet care manual.
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Author: Geirskogul
Date: 2008-10-10 08:34
Soak it in sweet almond oil, that's the ticket.
A ticket straight to an exploding clarinet. Post pics if you do.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-10-10 12:47
sbrodt54, I still disagree with almost everything you wrote.
I think we'll have to agree to differ.
"I have been reading a sax board and there’s someone named Gordon "
Yes, that's me.
Hmmm.
I wrote " When a metal or plastic washer is shrunk (by cooling), the ID gets smaller along with the OD. Sure, timber behaves a bit differently......."
You wrote "I didn’t quite understand your statement here. Sorry."
It's very basic physics. Let's look at the opposite. Heat a metal or plastic washer. The outside diameter gets larger, and so does the inside diameter.
"Shellac is quite brittle"
Agreed, IF it is bent or stretched. But it is also partly adhesive. The brittleness in this situation is irrelevant, it is not being bent or stretched.
"... and since the wood will expand and contract the very second you start to blow warm air through it..."
Not true. Grenadilla is remarkably temperature stable. It swells with increasing MOISTURE content. Change in moisture content is not a rapid process. It takes hours or days, especially if the bore oil is hydrophilic, buffering the moisture content, as are Doctors products bore oils.
"... there’s always a good chance that the stress will crack, or even crush the brittle glue..."
It is not crushable in that sense. It is in a confined space, in a very thin layer. No amount of crushing is going to cause it to leave that space.
Shellac does not crush easily. By comparison, timber is far less rigid. So if there are compressive forces between the timber and the shellac, the compression occurs mainly in the timber.
" ... We all need to keep an open mind when repairing, you never know when someone will come up with results that are better, faster and beneficial to the customer in every way and following that lead can only make you a better tech.."
Are you saying that shrinking rings is something novel and good? There is nothing new about shrinking tenon rings to a smaller diameter. The practice has been discarded as obsolete by the vast majority of technicians.
"... If the wood shrinks any more (after the glue is put on) the rings will fall off again, that glue doesn’t stick to the metal rings all that well..."
True. In my considerable experience, this is rare in practice. But the shellac is very easy to replace, a little thicker. AND anybody semi-practical can do it. I would guess that you'd be unlikely to find one technician in 50 with tenon-shrinking gear. Those who have it very likely do not use it any more, except perhaps for the large end of bells..
".. If one section of the clarinet starts to expand back to it’s original dimensions, the male socket could crush the glue and crack the female socket as well... "
Sorry, I don't follow you.
What is a male socket?
Shellac does not crush in this sense. It simply does not crush!
A tenon socket that has a secure ring does not crack beneath the ring!!
Granted, if the clarinet is moved permanently to a much more humid climate again, then it may well be advisable to take the shellac out again. Much easier than unshrinking metal rings.
<<<<<when I have used shellac, the result has ALWAYS been to "keep things where they belong long term">>>>
"Shellac gets old and more brittle with age. "
It does do, slightly, but it NEVER just falls out from between a tenon socket and a metal ring. It remains as a gap filler unless it is deliberately removed.
"... Sometimes it can be a little confusing but as the clarinet wood shrinks on the outside, the bore gets bigger on the inside, not smaller...."
"... The bigger the inside bore the flatter the instrument will get. In every case..."
No. Get the top half of a clarinet, and while playing it, insert a rod up into it, to effectively reduce the bore diameter. It gets flatter. This technique has been used to attempt to flatten the pitch of high pitched instruments. Conversely, if the effective bore diameter is increased, the instrument gets sharper. So your flatness most be due to something else......
"... as we prepare to play a concert we all warm up, not just to get ready to play but to get the instrument up to pitch..."
That has nothing to do with changing the dimensions of the timber. It is everything to do with changing the density of the air INSIDE the bore. This is very basic acoustic science of woodwinds. Research it!
"... There’s nothing odd or new here, any wooden instrument will start to expand and get higher in pitch as we start to play, the warm, moist breath we put into the clarinet makes it expand..."
Sorry. Nothing to do with the body expanding. See above. [Why am I discussing this with you... are you a troll?]
I wrote: <<<I once measured the socket diameter of a barrel (with rings), then soaked it for many hours in water, and re-measured. There was no significant change in ID.<<<<<"
You wrote:
"I’m sorry to say your research is not very well controlled. You need to know the level of humidity in the clarinet before you start, then measure it again after you soak it, then have the proper instruments to test the inside bore (that would be a correct mandrel for that bore and instrument). A slight change of 1/1000th of an inch would change the intonation and that would be difficult to measure properly without the correct tools..."
Before the experiment the timber of the barrel was dry from lying in the dust, unused, for decades. The moisture content would have been similar to the that of the air here. After being soaked for many hours, the moisture content would have been about as high as it could get.
I used suitable tools (accurate to about 1/4000" and averaging techniques for measurements to be accurate enough to make a statement. Sure, it could have been more controlled, but I took the timber to an extreme of moisture content to make a statement, and it sure made a statement. The experiment did not need to be more controlled to make the statement it made.
"...Yes, the atmosphere is quiet different all over the world and we all need to do our best to keep the wood stable so that the changes that occur when we play (swelling) and then swab out (shrinking) the clarinet/oboe will stay fairly close to it’s original size and shape..."
Yes, but I think you are rather fanatical in your approach. Decent moisture-buffering bore oil, plus adjusting the tenon rings to suit the climate, are quite satisfactory for anything but the wildest extremes of climate.
I wrote: <<<<I have never encountered a crack adjacent to a secure ring. So there seems to be something wonky about the perceived cause and effect here.<<
"... Just because you have not experienced this, doesn’t mean it has not happened...."
Perhaps I should add that I have worked on hundreds of wooden clarinets.
Perhaps I should add that in the Delphi technicians forum, over many years now, I have never heard mention of a tenon socket cracking in this way. I wonder if you are cracking them by over-shrinking tenon rings!
"... Just because you have not experienced this, doesn’t mean it has not happened...."
Is there any point in saying this?... Just because I have not experienced a clarinet self-igniting, or tying a knot in itself doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Let's keep the discussion closer to reality.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-10 17:51
Gordon,
This could go on for about four years. Research on clarinet wood, bore oil and temperature/humidity affects have been going on for some time, it's wonderful for other techs to share their findings so we can all benefit.
Without taking up any more space I'll allow this to end with I disagree with most everything you wrote. I have repaired probably 2 thousand clarinets in 40 years, the experience that I have gained through that and from other techs across the USA seem to contradict almost everything you wrote.
Have a good day!
Scott Brodt
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-10 22:30
I've only ever known of repairers in the US shrinking socket rings to fit (as well as flush banding cracked joints) - elsewhere they tend to either shim or glue them (and pin cracks rather than flush banding), so it's swings and roundabouts as to which methods are favoured depending where you are in the world and what is considered to be best. Certain methods in some regions will be viewed with suspicion or not favoured at all in other regions.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-10-11 01:20
Chris, most techs here in the States do not band cracked wood. I have only seen one clarinet banded in the past 5 years, and that was an older, used R13 someone bought in a pawn shop. Granted I don't see as many as others on this board, but even so, most folks do not get cracked woods repaired by banding around the Geat Lakes/Midwest areas of the country.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-11 11:35
>> Without taking up any more space I'll allow this to
>> end with I disagree with most everything you wrote
I can't think of anything better to use the space than instructive posts with good reasons and explainations. I know at least I would like to know your reasons behind what you claim.
I use shellac and consider that better than any method which doesn't support the wood all around (like a paper shim without extra filler). I haven't yet seen a clarinet crack after a ring was glued with shellac. I also have seen only one time where a ring became loose again after it was glued with shellac, but this can happen after shrinking a ring too.
I've seen a clarinet crack with a tight ring (no shellac or any glue). Also, and it could be a coincidence, but I haven't seen a cracked socket with a shellaced ring.
>> The bigger the inside bore the flatter the instrument will get.
I made the bore of a clarinet smaller, and it played flatter.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-11 14:54
Chris,
Back in the 50s and 60s there were probably 10 music stores in my area that had pretty decent repairmen in them, banding cracks in clarinets was big back then. In the 70s, pinning took over and I have not seen a band since. I never learned to band so I have only ever pinned cracks and then dressed them properly to make them disappear as best as I could.
The loose rings on joints has always been a problem here because we have a huge swing in temperature and humidity through the year, it can swing from 10% humidity to 100% in two days and that's way too drastic for wood. Just trying to keep tight rings on a stock of new clarinets is a major project. If the rings are loose and someone tries to put a new clarinet together, especially with new corks that are not compressed at all, the female socket will split.
If you had a loose bell ring on your clarinet, Gigliotti would put the bell into a ziplock bag with water and let it soak for a night. It was certainly tight the next morning but I found that to be a little drastic. I try to keep the humidity level in the room where new clarinets are stored at a fairly high level so things stay fairly stable while they are here. After someone purchases a clarinet, I do my best to instruct them on the care after it leaves and that means paying attention to the humidity surrounding them so they might need to keep dampits/humidistats or whatever in the case to keep the humidity level stable for their clarinet.
Trying to keep the clarinet stable is the key (I believe) to few to zero cracks, great intonation and tight rings. If the rings are loose it means that the clarinet wood has shrunk in some way, it's not likely that the rings expanded. So when I get a clarinet in to repair with loose rings the first things I do is to get that clarinet humidified and try my best to get it back to it's original size and shape. Unfortunately, wood doesn't always unwarp back to the shape it was, even with a ton of humidity it might never come back to the size and shape it was one month ago. My approach has been to do my best to rehumidify, after I'm secure that the wood has expanded as much as it is going to and any of the rings are still loose, I will shrink the rings to fit the clarinet.
I will talk to the owner and tell them what I did and that it would be best to stay on top of the humidity so that the clarinet doesn't shrink again. I think this is the best course of repair because it fits the rings to the clarinet very well and the joints are as solid as they were when it was new. If I just filled the gap with glue, I made no attempt to get the clarinet back to it's original shape and size. If I did try to rehumidify the clarinet and then filled the gap with glue, it still doesn't have the security of a metal ring surrounding the female socket tightly.
Clarnibass, you didn't say what you did to the bore to make it smaller. If I undercut a few tone holes too much and I'm not careful, I can easily make a clarinet play flat. Can you review everything you did with that bore and all of the time involved? Even something so small as dripping some wax on the inside of a bore can raise the pitch.
I'll watch for your post.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-10-11 15:30
sbrodt54 wrote:
> Can you review
> everything you did with that bore and all of the time involved?
> Even something so small as dripping some wax on the inside of a
> bore can raise the pitch.
Just hang a piece of string in the bore. The clarinet will play flat.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-11 16:10
>> If I did try to rehumidify the clarinet and then filled the gap
>> with glue, it still doesn't have the security of a metal ring
>> surrounding the female socket tightly.
Yes, that's what you claim, but what is your reason to WHY. You said the shellac is too brittle and will crush. Well, my experience, and Gordon's too it seems (who has more experience than me BTW), is that it doesn't! If this happened then the shellac would 'squirt' out from between the ring and socket, or you would have shellac crumbs falling from there. I've never had this happen.
Obviously it's impossible that in the same situation the shellac supports the wood and it doesn't. So maybe something in the glued rings youv'e seen made it a bad repair. Are you sure about the type of glue used? Even if shellac (though some other glues probably work fine too), maybe it was an especially bad type for the purpose. I use a specific type from the ones I have, but I don't really know if the other types would have a problem or not (I just have some reasons to use this type over the others). Maybe whoever did it put just a little bit of the glue so it was still mostly loose, and without enough support? Lots of possibilities. Have you actually tried gluing a loose ring with Shellac and saw it crush and the wood crack?
I've done it on one ring on my clarinet (the middle connection). That was four years ago. It used to be tight in the summer and loose in the winter. Loose enough that when I assembled or disassembled the clarinet it could fall (one time I almost lost it in a messy and crowded room!). There is no sign of a crack or the ring becoming loose again, and although I take the best care of someone's else instrument and always recommend the best methods to keep it in best condition, I actually don't treat my own clarinet this way, and actually do nothing about humidity for it. In case it matters, some period of the year the tempetures can go from hot to cold in one day, and for people who often go between the main two cities (many people do) there is a big variation in humidity too.
>> Even something so small as dripping some wax
>> on the inside of a bore can raise the pitch.
I put in it a lot more than that. I put something like a 1/3 sleeve in the top joint and made sure it was always in the opposite side of whatever tone hole of a note I was playing. Then I put a rod and the result was mostly the same. You keep saying it will be sharp but three people claimed the opposite... and I just tried it for dog's sake!
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-12 19:28
Clarnibass,
I was intrigued with your experiment so I decided to play myself. I took a clarinet with a damaged lower joint (plastic Henkin) and played with the top half and two barrels. I use a Yamaha mouthpiece with a plastic reed for some consistency. I played one note into a tuner, well actually I fingered a c but it came out as a different note and it was pretty nicely in tune. Then I put a small rod (a piccolo cleaning rod) into the end as I was playing and the pitch got quite flat, as the rod came back out it went back to pitch.
Then I placed a string on the inside of the bore and got pretty much the same results, it was flat. Both of these results could be obtained by placing your finger near the end of the clarinet too, just blocking the air flow was enough to make the pitch soar flat so I felt that maybe that was the case, it was the disruption or blockage of the air flow/nodal points that made things go flat.
Kids, don't try this at home. I checked the pitch once more with nothing inside the instrument and it was in tune, then I took a reamer that we use to ream out cello peg boxes to refit the pegs and I reamed out the bore of the barrel a bit. That made it play about 20 cents flat. I then rolled up a small piece of paper into a cylinder and put that nicely into the upper joint/barrel area so that the inside bore would be smaller and it was then 20 cents sharp.
I know you don't have a reamer at home to play with and you certainly don't want to damage any clarinet's you might have around the house but I'm still fairly certain the there is a direct relationship to bore size and pitch. As Gordon asked, I will investigate as much as I can, I'm old but I'm sure I can learn.
I feel confident that shrinking the rings is the most solid and substantial way to support joints, it's a piece of metal tightly around wood, nothing in between.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-13 05:19
Hi
Maybe you missed what I wrote, that when I played the upper joint I didn't finger low C, specifically for the reason of blocking the 'tone hole' (end of the tube). I tried several notes and made sure the tone holes for whatever note I was playing were in no way blocked by the 1/3 circle sleeve I put in the bore, so there was nothing blocking them. Did you try something like this, or did you only try it with the low C fingering (which is completely different)?
>> I know you don't have a reamer at home to play with and you certainly
>> don't want to damage any clarinet's you might have around the house
How do you know what I have or don't have? ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
I actually don't have any clarinet that I want to ruin here but I might have a barrel I don't mind experimenting with.
>> shrinking the rings is the most solid and substantial way to support joints
If done right, possibly it is, but to me the question is whether "the most solid and substantial method" is really better? For example, my dad is a little stronger than me and beat me in arm wrestling, but we are both a lot stronger than my mom. My dad can more solidly and substiantially (are these actually words? I'm guessing here) beat my mom, but if the purpose was to beat her, it didn't matter which one of us did it. That's my opinion about shrinking the rink and using shellac, except IMO shellac has a lot of other advantages too.
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Author: Clari
Date: 2008-10-13 05:26
Anyone know where I can buy a metal ring in online stores? I cannot find any where sell those seperately.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-13 07:42
"Anyone know where I can buy a metal ring in online stores? I cannot find any where sell those seperately."
Ferree's sells them. www.ferreestools.com The catalog is downloadable in about 3 or 4 PDF files now, so once you find the item you can ask for the price or have them email you a price list. They are always very helpful in advising how to use their products if you have a "how to" question.
---
Just to add a bit of info to the fight about loose ring techniques, let me impart what the late Jimmy Yan did.
1. Remove the lose ring.
2. Place one layer of a T-shirt over the tenon and stretch it down.
3. Place the ring back on the tenon and lightly hammer it to about 3/4 the way on.
4. With a razor, cut the excess around the bottom and on the tenon hole.
5. Continue to hammer the ring onto the tenon until it is flush.
This is essentially a "shim" technique that ensures that there is an even amount of material all the way around.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-13 08:02
I would also like to add a bit about my own opinion/experience about loose rings.
The question must be answered as to "Why?" the rings is loose. There are 2 situations this could happen.
1. The wood, at a time of HIGH moisture content, was fitted with the tenon ring. Then, as the wood later dried, the ring loosened.
2. The wood, at a time of LOW moisture content, was fitted with a ring. At some point later, the wood swelled due to increased humidity and the ring stretched. Then, the wood dried again, and the ring became loose.
The reason that this is important is that refitting the ring by any method is not really a great idea unless you attempt to stop the wood itself from the expansion/contraction that caused this to start with.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-10-13 17:23
"2. The wood, at a time of LOW moisture content, was fitted with a ring. At some point later, the wood swelled due to increased humidity and the ring stretched. Then, the wood dried again, and the ring became loose."
The gut intuitive feeling of this engineer is that the forces would not be great enough, and the timber sufficiently yielding, for the metal not to stretch.
"The reason that this is important is that refitting the ring by any method is not really a great idea unless you attempt to stop the wood itself from the expansion/contraction that caused this to start with."
I agree. And perhaps the best method of doing this is through use of Doctor's Products' hydrophilic, moisture-buffering bore oil.
BTW, Sbrodt54: You wrote "I have repaired probably 2 thousand clarinets in 40 years, the experience that I have gained through that and from other techs across the USA seem to contradict almost everything you wrote. "
To put you in the picture, I can claim pretty much the same experience, and (forum based) contact with USA technicians, not that it necessarily matters in the analysis of a particular issue.
As I recall it, a couple of times in the last decade, a technician has tried to sell his ring shrinking and flush-banding equipment via the Delphi technicians forum, and there has been little interest. But technicians have mentioned how their equipment of this sort lives in the dust. And I recall technicians mentioning using this equipment very Little during that time. Perhaps selective memory. Perhaps its use is more or less obsolete.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-10-13 18:24
>> This is essentially a "shim" technique that ensures that
>> there is an even amount of material all the way around.
I don't think it's necessary to have an even amount of material all the way around. It is possibly better to have the exact correct layer of filler and not the same all around, which is exactly what shellac does. In reality though I don't think it matters that much (but I would still prefer to use chellac).
Post Edited (2008-10-13 18:30)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-10-13 19:58
If it's only very slightly loose in that the ring moves and can be taken off by hand with a bit of force, I usually degrease the recess where the ring locates, then apply superglue around the circumference of the recess, let the glue go off and put the ring back on. This can easily be removed if it needs to be.
If the ring is loose in that it rattles and falls off, I'd shim it with paper.
If it's really loose in that the shrinkage of the wood is excessive, I'd shim it with fabric (ie. cotton).
In the last two examples where I'd shim it, the end of the socket is covered with the shimming material, the ring put back on and tapped down 1/2 to 2/3 the way, then the excess is trimmed off and the part that covers the socket removed, then the ring is tapped home leaving no loose ends of shim visible.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-10-14 00:33
Chris,
That's the way my father did rings for many years until we could afford the ring shrinking press. I agree that the cloth (or paper) would support the joint uniformly and that would be important, if the gap were taken up in only two places the clarinet could still be damaged when assembled.
<<<<I can claim pretty much the same experience, and (forum based) contact with USA technicians, not that it necessarily matters in the analysis of a particular issue.>>>
Then why did you bring it up?
<<<<< But technicians have mentioned how their equipment of this sort lives in the dust.<<<<
If you approach the problem correctly you don't need to use it very often and it is rather expensive. You would have to have need of this press more than once or twice a year for it to pay for itself.
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Author: BP
Date: 2008-10-14 20:46
Linda at Brannen Woodwinds told me years ago to "Play your horn" to keep the rings from getting loose. I have a second clarinet that had that problem and I took her advice after she repaired it. It has not happened since. I live in Las Vegas.
Bill Payne
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-10-14 23:07
Hmm.
I think this thread probably does not have enough technicians present to present a balanced perspective, especially when justification for buying very expensive equipment is a side issue. I suspect such a discussion would have been far more 'lively' in the sax forum!
"Play your horn" to keep the rings from getting loose."
Yes, that helps a lot. But possibly insufficient in climate extremes.
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Author: willpow
Date: 2008-10-15 05:51
I appreciate and have enjoyed reading all the advice and discussion on my question. I'm working on monitored hydration and it seems to be helping. I have 5 clarinets (Eb, A, and 3 Bb) that for many years I play each at least once a week for 1 to to 3 hours at a time in a community concert band, community orchestra, or at home. I also have a C Clarinet that I only play about once a month. I live in Northern California between Sacramento, CA and Reno, NV at about 3,000 elevation. It is 80-90s in the summer and 30-70s in the winter. I'm thinking it is the variation in climate rather than lack of playing that caused the rings to come lose. I noticed it about the time I move to a new home a few miles away. It is a bigger home and the a/c-heater runs more often which I suspect has something to do with it. Thanks all.
Will
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-10-15 15:10
Me- "2. The wood, at a time of LOW moisture content, was fitted with a ring. At some point later, the wood swelled due to increased humidity and the ring stretched. Then, the wood dried again, and the ring became loose."
Gordon(NZ)- "The gut intuitive feeling of this engineer is that the forces would not be great enough, and the timber sufficiently yielding, for the metal not to stretch."
--
I am not speaking from personal experience, but I have been told of situations where the bands break when the wood swells and I have seen some bands that were slightly separated at their solder point.
I think that in my above mentioned situation 1, shrinking the bands would be best because the wood (which is now dryer and more stable) has little chance of expanding again. The only cog in the wheel of my situations 1 and 2 is that (oops!) there is not really any way to know which on really happened.
In regards to humidifying the wood- perhaps oiling the wood would be better to get the wood to be "fat" again?? Oil in the wood does not dissipate nearly as quickly as moisture does.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-10-16 08:52
"... I am not speaking from personal experience, but I have been told of situations where the bands break when the wood swells and I have seen some bands that were slightly separated at their solder point..."
I suspect the breaking rings are because of poor, barely-holding silver-solder joints. It takes a LOT of tension to stretch a thick metal ring like that. Such force would almost certainly compress the timber (around the circumference) instead, timber being a relatively 'spongy' material.
"...In regards to humidifying the wood- perhaps oiling the wood would be better to get the wood to be "fat" again?? Oil in the wood does not dissipate nearly as quickly as moisture does..."
But according to claims, the most appropriate oils will actually HOLD the moisture from escaping, ie buffering (stabilising) the moisture content in the timber, despite the humidity of the environment.
http://www.doctorsprod.com/store/comersus_listItems.asp?idCategory=15
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