 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-09-19 15:21
A couple weeks ago, I posted about my clarinet playing sharp. As suggested, I contacted Tom and to my surprise found out from Tom that the Vandoren 5RVLyre is pitched at 442 and the M series are pitched at 440. I never knew that.
so question is this - my stand partner plays a Buffet R13 and a Vandoren 5RV Lyre. Why doesnt his clarinet play sharp and mine did?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-09-19 15:26
They could be using a softer reed.
Their fundamentals could be different.
-They do not use customary tongue position.
-Their embouchure may not be perfect.
They could have a longer barrel.
The fundamental tuning of their instrument is different than yours.
The bore diameter is different.
Their 5RV Lyre is different.
No two players will play the same equipment to the same outcome (generally speaking).
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-09-19 16:46
Janlynn,
If you go to Vandorens website and look at the information table on their mouthpieces....found in the products section, then you will have all the info you need.
Vandoren makes many mouthpieces and most of them come in 442 pitch and 440 pitch. The 440 pitch mouthpieces are called series 13 and are more popular here in the U.S. where the pitch center is still at 440 allthough that is starting to change in many of the orchestras around the country.
Te following mouthpiece models are made in both regular and series 13 pitch:
5RV
5Rv Lyre
B40
B45
B40 Lyre
M30
M15
Two models are made in series 13 only and they are the M13 and M13 Lyre.
So what does this mean?
Maybe your 5rv is the regular pitch model and so it is designed to play at 442. Maybe your friends is the series 13 model so plays lower. All of the things Tobin listed can also cause pitch variance. There is no one answer to the question but it would be prudent for you to know which model you have and which model your friend has. Barrel length can play a huge roll in general intonation. I love barrel makers and or clarinet companys that say 66mm is standard for a B-flat clarinet. Comments like this are simply untrue. I know great players in big orchestras that play 68 mm barrels on Bflat
clarinet and players that play 65mm barrels. There is no one correct uniform length and or measurement that fits everyone. If you are sharp then you need a longer barrel and then need to practice and learn how to maintain a high level of playing while also lowering the pitch.
I play a Vandoren mouthpiece in orchestras and I have to use the 442 pitrch model. The series 13 model for me is terribly flat and has some real issues in throat tones on my clarinets. Some of my colleagues that play Vandoren play the series 13 model. Thats just the way it works. Intonation is much more about the player and his/her tendencies than it is about equipment.
Post Edited (2008-09-19 20:31)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-20 11:09
Jack Brymer's book Clarinet has a good example of two players who (if I remember correct) play(ed) in the same orchestra, be able to be in tune with each other, played on the same model clarinet, mouthpiece and reeds. They could switch their mouthpiece and reed and still play the same, but if they switched clarinets they would be out of tune, because one player different size tone holes (mainly of the throat notes I think) than the other. That's because of one of the examples that James wrote - players playing differently.
You can't really compare two situations where the only thing (maybe) identical is the mouthpiece. If you're sharp try opening the barrel/joints or a longer barrel, try a different mouthpiece, etc. or (not knowing your level) maybe consult a clarinet teacher who can hear you and suggest the best solution.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-20 11:28
"then you will have all the info you need"
Not now or ever....
Bob Draznik
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2008-09-20 11:45
oh, i got the problem taken care of. tom sent me a great new barrell. i different mouthpiece would probably make it even better.
but it was my stand mates question as to why etc...
thanks for all the info becuz i didnt know either.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2008-09-20 12:45
If I played 2 pitches and A=440 and an A442, one clarinetist in 20 would be able to tell that the 2 pitches are different. When most of the players I hear play sharp, it's usually because of too much lip pressure on the "wrong" spot of the reed. AND it's usually more, way more, than the 2 cents that Vandoren designates. No I'm afraid to say, that when we are high in pitch, it is we, myself included, that are playing high. It's so easy to just pull the clarinet very slightly out of your mouth and put too much pressure. Pressure, that's such a tiny amount will kill the resonance of your sound and make the pitch substantially higher.
If your friends pitch is different from what you think it "should" be compared to yours, try this: Have him or her play their mouthpiece in the same manner they usually play, and then play yours. I bet your pitch is higher than theirs and you're using a "lower" pitch mouthpiece.
This might be me, but I seem to prefer the sound of the non 13 versions of Vandoren mouthpieces, I feel the 13s are not as resonant as the others. I solve the pitch issue with a slightly longer barrel.
Oh, and by the way, my pitch experiment was done at UofMD clarfest, where I played 3 pitches over head phones for 50 clarinetists, 2 were able to hear the difference between 440 and 442, 4 were able to pick out A445. That included the 2 who picked the 440/442. So statistically you double your group when you make the pitch higher. The thing that shocked me was 46 players couldn’t hear the difference. I would love to figure out a way to make that more scientific than a zoom recorder with synth pitches on it.
Tom
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2008-09-20 14:24
Just a small correction. You wrote "it's usually more, way more, than the 2 cents that Vandoren designates", however, the difference between 440Hz and 442Hz is 2Hz, not 2 cents. In cents, the difference between 440 and 442Hz is 7.85.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-09-20 14:53
>> I would love to figure out a way to make that more
>> scientific than a zoom recorder with synth pitches on it.
That's about as scientific as you can get except you can have a lot of testing than that, which was done. I don't remember if it was in the local university acoustic department or in another place/country, but they made extensive testing to see what difference (in cents) people can hear when two notes are played one after the other. Of course the results are different depending on the pitch of the note (easiest to hear difference in pitch around 3000hz, then gradually worse above and below).
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