 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: autumnsilence
Date: 2008-09-17 06:37
I posted something similar a while back and just wanted to see if anyone had the same problem or knows of a solution of some sort...
Basically i bought a clarinet that was lightly used (Buffet b12) for a better instrument until i had the money for a R13.. anyway, i played it a few times and once school started it lasted me two band classes until it all of a sudden wasnt working right.
I dont think i mentioned last time that the day before i noticed that the instrument bent slightly between the top and bottom joint when you put pressure on it and it was mostly becaue the cork needed replaced im assuming.. so my band teacher had me leave it at school over night and he replaced the cork with a corkish substitute that is just supposed to be a stand in until i get it recorked in that spot.. so the next day i came to band and grabbed my clarinet (with the new recorkish stuff) and went to play and noticed immediately that it wouldnt play right. When i blew in it, obviously you could blow into it just fine but no sound came out.. you could very slightly hear it trying to make a sound (if that makes sense) but it wouldnt at all. But i could play the C and B (middle staff with the pinky keys) and the open G and very slightly the F just below the Open G.... i did notice that after playing (or attempting to play) for about 45 mins i could mostly play the D, (The one just above the C and B that i was able to play in the beginning) and i asked my band teacher and he said that it might be n air leak or that maybe its the pads expanding or something like that because it hadnt been played that much... so i left it at home and continued using my older clarinet that i have had before the new one and just yesterday i took it out again and tried playing it and its still doing the same thing....
So i went down to the only music store we have in town and asked him if there were any repair places near by i could take it to and he said i could go out of town (like a two hour drive) but that it costs like 50 bucks just for them to look at it, not including repairs or anything and i wanted to check and see if anyone knew what the problem is instead of spending 50 bucks to find out if someone here already has an idea....
Im assuming it might me something with the cork stuff because it was fine up until i got the cork fixed but i really dont know, anyone have any ideas??
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-09-17 07:19
Take a look at the screw that in on the throat Ab key. Is there any space between the screw and the A key?? There should be a little space when the key is closed. If there is no space then take a screwdriver and unscrew it until there is space.
If that is not the problem, then you need to send it to a repair person. Many repair shops will accept repair via mail. I assume you are in Arkansas. The nearest place that I know can think of is Wichita Band in Kansas. Here is there info- 1(800) 835-3006. www.wichitaband.com
I personally have NEVER had any work done by them. I have no idea of their quality. Maybe some other Bboard people have???
Clearly, this is not something that you or your band teacher can fix.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2008-09-17 07:26
Whether the middle joint cork seals well or not, BY ITSELF, would make little difference in getting the notes in just the left hand (on the upper joint, as it were) to speak, providing that the upper joint is in good shape.
The severity of your problems points to multiple big leaks or something truly awful like a really nasty crack somewhere, nothing as subtle as pads expanding (whatever that is).
It sounds almost as if some of the keys were bent by some ham-fisted person trying to assemble or disassemble the instrument or that the instrument was dropped from some height. Or you might have a nice chunk of dirt in the bore somewhere, like in the register tube (though that wouldn't account for notes below the throat register not speaking at all).
Could be just one or two pads leaking, but however many there are--one or more--the leaks are big.
Take the clarinet apart, and....
- on the upper joint, cover all the tone holes with your left hand and "plug" the end of the bore with your right, then blow steadily into the top of the joint.
- do the same thing with the lower joint, with all holes covered all all pads closed, as if you're playing a low E with just your right hand.
From what you describe, you probably will actually hear air coming out of one or more places. At the very least, you'll feel air coming out of the instrument, even if you don't hear it.
If you blow into either joint, closed off as I described, and you don't come up with some pretty big leaks. I can't imagine what else it could be short of a wide crack going all the way through the instrument somewhere, especially in a tone hole chimney--or maybe there's a big gash in the side of a tone hole.
Though cracks are common, cracks so severe and extensive that they would cause, by themselves, the problems you describe are very rare. Messed up tone holes, however, happen all the time when people try to do their own repairs or use screwdrivers to clean pads or do similar awful things.
I hate to say it, but my guess is that you're going to be looking at several hundred dollars for a repadding and key regulating job, at least. (Let's hope that the technician who works on your instrument knows what he or she is doing.) It's possible that the solution will be one or two pads needing replacement, but it doesn't sound like it.
Bite the bullet and find someone who really knows clarinet repair. I gave you a couple ways to see if you could identify the problem, but fixing it should be left to a competent technician (unfortunately, usually not band directors, well-intentioned though they may be).
Good luck with this.
B.
Post Edited (2008-09-17 07:30)
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2008-09-17 07:46
just take only the upper joint and blow all the notes you can . I suppose this won't be a problem. When it is , look indeed at the a-flat key , push the trill keys firmly in their holes and also look at the other keys ( c#, Eb ) to see if they close firmly
Then add the lower joint and turn the two pieces of the bridge so that they overlap each other completely and try to play . Do you now notice that the pad between e and d on the upper joint doesn't close . If yes , something is wrong with the bridge key mechanism . Easy to look for with your own eyes .Could also be that the lower rings don't close perfect while the upper pad is already closing . If these are the case , someone did screw up the bridge mechanism . That could explain your problem. You can normally y bend the bridge mechanism in place again yourself . Be carefull though
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Author: autumnsilence
Date: 2008-09-17 08:13
actually no, i dont live in kansas, i live in alaska... so there arent really that many repair shops around here besides one or two i believe (many hours of driving away )
I really wouldnt be surprised if someone (hopefully not me..) ended up bending the key work whileputting it together because when i came to grab it the next morning my band teacher put the two joint together and left it like that so that the cork would like fit right or something along those lines.. i noticed that when i tried to take it apart later that day the cork was really tight and its pretty hard to take it apart without literally just grabbing both joints around the keys and pulling it (which im sure doing that it wouldnt be hard to bend something) but i ususaly try to wiggle it apart without having to use the keys as grip lol. but maybe my teacher did that without realizing it... i dunno..
I am almost positive there are no large gashes/cracks because i thouroughly checked it when it started doing this although i dont have an expert eye.. i looked at all the pads and madesure there were no large gaps when they closed especially on the very bottom ones that i heard buffets ususaly have problems with.. i also looked it over making sure none of the screws were really far out or anything. I checked and it looked like everything was aligned for the most part and that all of the keys werent blocked bysomething of course i dont have a professional eye for these things.
i didnt check the Ab key yet seeing as i left it at school so i didnt have to walk home in the rain with it and ill look at it tomorrow. I did notice that even though the cork around the joint that was temeraraly fixed was very tight, it still bent forward just slightly like a small crack when you push it forward... dont realy know why it does that and i thought maybe it was a small leak but i looked at it and it doesnt seem like anything is wrong.... i would be more than willing to dump money into it to get it repaired but seeing as it was only a temporary one im not so sure. i still have a perfectly fine working Selmer Cl300 that has been suiting be for the past few years.. and if im gonna dump money into a clarinet (which i plan to) i would be more willing to spend it on a R13 than i can take to college with me. maybe if its an easy fix (which asof now it doesnt sound like it) i could sell it once this problem isdelt with but ill ask around and see if there isnt someone else in the area that can look at it and at least tell me whats wrong with it
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-09-17 09:16
Woops! 'AK' is 'AlasKa' not 'ArKansis'. Sorry.
In any case, you can mail your clarinet to a good shop. $50 for an estimate should not be necessary unless it is valued against the cost of the repair.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-17 13:33
Here's my guess:
The teacher had to take the side keys off for access to the centre tenon.
He had problems, either taking off or putting on, because he was ignorant, and either:
1. Did not know that the top 3 side keys have to come off and go on together, so in the attempt, he bent one, so that the pad no longer closes with a seal.
or
2. He was totally without experience so he messed up getting the spring of one of those keys into the correct place in its spring groove. So the spring does not work and the pad does not close with a seal.
A pad leak associated with either of the top 2 side keys results in the symptoms you describe.
Diagnosis: While you are trying to play the lowest C, use the right hand to squeeze these side keys closed.
Band-aid You probably rarely use these keys, so tape them tightly closed, until you can get the problem dealt with.
If that is the problem, then it is likely to be a 1 to 10 minute job for a technician. I would more than likely do it while the customer waited.
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Author: autumnsilence
Date: 2008-09-17 19:22
Well i tried one of the sugguestions and closed off all fingerings and blew through the top joint and turns out there was an air leak... took a while to figure out where but i found out that its the pad for the Ab throat key.. (the one that goes over the A key) and that when i push down the pad it closes all the way so i guess the pad needs to be reseated or repadded.. what is the usual etimate cost for this? just curious so that i know weather or not it would be cheaper to send it out of state rather than do it here... thanks for the help
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-09-17 19:53
Back-up the adjusting screw on the throat Ab until you feel a little free play (between A and Ab throat keys) when you press the throat A key.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2008-09-17 21:19
That's why Vytas is a pro.
He went with the simplest explanation first, and ignored all the extra stuff.
I pride myself on doing the same, but missed mentioning the Ab key because I didn't think of the most obvious answer as I bathed in the details.
Shame on me.
B.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-09-17 22:00
A pad can come completely out of the cup too, and not be noticed.
Bob Draznik
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-09-17 22:31
If the adjusting screw on the throat Ab is set correctly and it is the pad that needs changing, putting a new pad into the throat Ab key is certainly within the do-it-yourself realm.
Rather than send out your clarinet and have it unavailable for a few weeks, it would be wise to own an extra set of pads for quick emergency repairs. I require all my students to have an extra set of pads and most do a fairly competent job of changing a pad when necessary.
Learning to change your own pads can save you lots of time (some money, too) and will keep you playing ...GBK
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Author: autumnsilence
Date: 2008-09-17 23:41
yes i would actually love to learn how to change the pads and do minor corrections such as this to save time and money on future repairs but in this case im not 100% sure that its because the pad needs to be replaced.. it looks fairly new (as far asi can tell and compared to some of the other pads) and i noticed that without pushing the Ab key and the pad is supposed to be closed, there is a small gap around about half of the pad cup and it looks like it needs to be slid closer to the right side (when in playing position) to get it to cover the hole properly, yet im not sure if this is how you would fix that problem or if replacing the pad will actually fix this by itself. I realize that obviously it would be hard to move the pad seat over considering the Ab key is already extremely close to the screw/A key so i most definately wont try that without knowing what im doing, but Vytas mentioned to loosen the screw until there is a little freeplay.. but what exactly do you mean by that? just so i moves a little free-er? Also it seemed like a fairly big leak because when i took the top joint and covered all holes and blew in it (with less force than it takes to make a noise in a clarinet so tht i didnt force air through anywhere that didnt have a leak) there was quite a bit of air flow coming out and it was blowing over so that it made it seem like the air was coming from the thumbhole area, and it wasnt until i pushed down the pad cup and the Ab quite a bit that it close all the way....
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-18 02:07
"...Vytas mentioned to loosen the screw until there is a little freeplay.. but what exactly do you mean by that? "
When you first start to push the A key, the key cup arm should rise a tiny bit, say 0.1 - 0.3 mm before it starts pressing on the end of the throat G# key's adjusting screw and lifting the G# key.
You turn that screw until there is a tiny gap as described.
However if your pad is closing on one side, but not the other, like you seem to describe, then it is more likely that your problem is to do with the alignment of the pad over the tone hole, rather than that screw. On this key, it can be a pretty tricky thing for a DIY guy to get alignment right. However check that gap under the screw in any case.
BTW these faults are unlikely to have anything to do with what your teacher did for the tenon cork operation. So there remains the mystery as to how this condition arose.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-18 02:28
" That's why Vytas is a pro. He went with the simplest explanation first, and ignored all the extra stuff. "
I'm not arguing whether or not Vytas is a pro fault analyst, or pro calrinetist, but....
There are many possibilities that could cause these symptoms. Some are much more likely than others. (A split is rather unlikely because it is very rare for a split to leak badly enough to produce these particular severe leak symptoms.)
It was not Vytas, but Skygardener, the first respondent, who first explained one of the most likely possibilites... "Take a look at the screw that in on the throat Ab key..."
And from what has been described since, the problem is the UNEVEN sealing of the pad, and probably not the screw, that is the issue.
So contrary to your impression, bmcgar, it is a case of the most obvious actually being incorrect.
My suggestion, to me actually the most obvious, given the timing of the onset, and the teacher's activities as a clue, also turned out incorrect.
The second equal most obvious (to me) would have been what it seems to have turned out to be.
So its a case of the most obvious being incorrect in this case.
The mystery remains as to how such a severe leak could have occurred so suddenly, and coincident with the technicians activities in an unrelated part of the instrument.
Such a severe leak, on that pad, on one side of it, so suddenly, is symptomatic of a compromised pad membrane that is allowing moisture into the pad to swell the felt.
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Author: autumnsilence
Date: 2008-09-18 04:29
well, i took a look at the screw and unscrewed it just a bit and it turns out that the screw actually was the problem. It was causing the Ab key to not close all the way but afterwards i took the top joint and covered all holes ect. and blew in it and it seemed to solve the problem of the air leak, although i havent actully put it together and played it yet (which i should just in case) but hopefully that was the only thing.. not sure how that happened either, maybe its cause when i randomly see a screw sticking out slightly, i have a tendancy to screw it back in but im pretty sure the screw wasnt sticking out before... either way, its funny how something as small as a screw being pushed in just a little bit too far can through the instrument off tremendously..
Thanks for the help, im glad there are you guys here i can ask other wise im sure i would have ended up dumping 100$ or more into something as simple as loosening a screw lol.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-09-18 13:57
Ah!
So Vytas was right after all. :-)
(Though I do suspect from the player investigation report, that there is a bit of lingering "skygardener" there too, altoug not enough to cause a leak - at present.)
It's all a bit of a lottery really, guessing without seeing.
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