 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-10 22:56
Very impressive. Is Texas that far ahead of everyone else and if so, why?
Bob Draznik
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Author: FDF
Date: 2008-08-10 23:13
Congratulations to the director for creating high expectations, a wonderful feeling of fullfillment for each individual performer, and a true ensemble. Congratulations to the students for their commitment to rehearsals, to each other, and to music. Bravo!
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-08-11 00:12
I think that Texas bands are at that level because of the attitude of Texas band directors. Highschool music education has become very competitive between schools in Texas. This competitiveness often overshadows meaningful musical education.
I know more than a few directors that discourage students from participating in musical groups outside of band, whether it be a rock band, jazz orchestra, or even a chamber ensemble. Although students are encouraged and often required to take private lessons, instructors are asked to focus on band repertoire. Unreasonable demands on students freetime and energy are fairly common in Texas.
Whether the director has created high expectations, feelings of fulfillment, etc. I cannot say for sure. However, a number of my friends (extremely talented musicians) that graduated from this particular highschool never touched an instrument again because of their experience.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2008-08-11 00:34
From my observations, the number of students, talented or not, who graduate from high school and never touch an instrujment again has always been high.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-08-11 01:00
Perhaps so, but I hope that most students do not quit playing because their highschool teachers fostered a dislike of classical music and the process of learning it.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-11 02:04
brycon wrote:
> I know more than a few directors that discourage students from
> participating in musical groups outside of band, whether it be a rock
> band, jazz orchestra, or even a chamber ensemble. Although students
> are encouraged and often required to take private lessons, instructors
> are asked to focus on band repertoire. Unreasonable demands on
> students freetime and energy are fairly common in Texas.
That's unfortunate. I had a very good experience in my high school band, but we had a great director who, despite the competitiveness of band, cared a lot about his students on an individual level.
He also tolerated a lot from us, from what you're describing :-) For one year, the top 4 chairs in the clarinet section (me included) were also members of the HS choir. I sang in the choir for 2 years, made JV region choir, went to solo and ensemble in choir, and was in the jazz choir and madrigal choir (optional after-school groups)--all while doing the same sort of stuff in band. As long as there were no schedule conflicts, he had no problem. I didn't take choir my senior year, but only because I wanted the additional time to pursue other things--not because my band director wanted me to.
I took private lessons with my own teacher (not affiliated with the school), and we never worked on band music. I can't recall anyone working on band music with their private teacher, and I can't recall our director ever demanding that they do.
I don't feel our director was at all like the directors you're describing, and my senior year we made Texas 5A Honor Band, too. (the only sort of crummy thing about that being that it's the next-year's band that gets recognized at the TMEA convention, so those of us who had been seniors in the band that actually won the competition didn't get to be a part of that--we were "Class of 1994" and it was our recording that was submitted and won the competition but the band was named "1995 Honor Band," because that was the year the band was recognized at the convention. That's just the way TMEA works, though.)
Incidentally, I understand that my HS band director is now the head of secondary music programs for Langham Creek HS's school district--so he's now their director's boss, in a sense.
Post Edited (2008-08-12 15:13)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-08-11 04:30
Michael,
I was also fortunate enough to teachers that encouraged students to pursue other interests. However, when I finished highschool I began teaching lessons at several schools. I taught in Spring Branch ISD and at HSPVA for a year which was nice, and then in the Cy-Fair district for a year which was not so nice. A year of having directors ask me to teach marching/concert band music and uninterested students complain about band was enough for me.
As one of my saxophone teachers once told me- you could train monkeys to play Stravinsky with as much rehearsal time as Texas band directors demand.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-08-11 13:14
I was in band in Texas for 7 years, from my 6th grade year through graduation in high school and am still playing clarinet on a regular basis with both a community band and an international orchestra. The things I learned in the Texas system (years 1960-1968) have gone with me throughout the world. I found that we learned things in high school band that many people didn't learn until college. So, ahead...maybe...depending upon the individual program in the school district.
There may be directors (as mentioned above) that don't want their kids to do other things, but that certainly isn't the case around here. Our kids do all kinds of other things.
The concert contests (UIL) are quite demanding, and most of the directors I had were plagued with stomach ulcers. But, the bands in Texas were and are very good. The program is still alive and well--if we can only keep it that way. So many people want to cut back on the expense of having music programs. That would be such a mistake.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-08-11 15:16
Whenever I've heard a Texas band play at the Mid-West B & O Clinc in Chicago, their programs always list a very impressive panel of teachers that conduct weekly sectional practices and give private lessons to most of the student members of their organizations. They are definately not a result of one director/teacher running the "whole show". Even the middle and junior high schools associated with each high school band often have more than one director working with their kids as well as extra instrumental teachers helping out. It is commendable that Texas school systems--some, if not all--support their musical groups so wonderfully and the results certainly do speak for themselves, as evident in vids posted by Sherm. There are other school districts around that similarly support their music programs--Cass Technical School of Detroit and the Round Lake School District in Illinois come immediately to mind--but unfortunately, they are in the minority. Most school districts find it too easy to cut financial support for the arts first, before all other programs. Thanks Sherman, it's always good to see and hear such wonderful performances by school kids--kind of a relief, in a way, from the Martin Frosts of the world :>)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-11 23:32
Brenda wrote:
> The concert contests (UIL) are quite demanding, and most of the
> directors I had were plagued with stomach ulcers.
That's been my impression. The contests are much more demanding on the directors than on the students.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-08-12 00:48
William,
You are so correct about the Midwest. I have heard bands there that just knocked my socks off. You also hit on a very important point and that is private lessons. My street sense says that a top band has a large percentage of students studying privately.
When I was doing a lot of private teaching I never encouraged student to bring in their band music unless there was fingering or rhythm that was troubling. We worked on the basic (scales, etudes, other technical studies, and there was always a solo).
One good news-bad news item though is with large group competition (marching band or concert band), a huge portion of rehearsal time is used to prepare just a few things. Sometimes, a few pieces that are enjoyable to play, relaxing to perform, and wonderful for audiences to hear must be included in the schedule. My mother used to say "you've got to give people something they can hum along with every so often."
HRL
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-12 15:22
brycon wrote:
> As one of my saxophone teachers once told me- you could train monkeys
> to play Stravinsky with as much rehearsal time as Texas band directors
> demand.
UIL apparently thought this was a problem, too. Several years ago they made a rule setting a maximum amount (8 hours) of weekly rehearsal time for marching band. I don't remember us rehearsing that much, but we certainly didn't rehearse any MORE than that when I was in school. Apparently some other schools did, though. It was no secret that our director tended to put much more emphasis on concert band than marching, though.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-12 15:45
>required to take private lessons
we can't require it. however it is 'strongly encouraged'.
the wind ensembles - maybe 1 or 2 kids do not take privately - all the others do - well over 95%. the second bands - probably 85% or more study privately.
the UIL 8 hour limit rule is still in effect, during the school year. summer marching started last week - or the prior week for a few schools - that is way more than 8 hours a week - 20-25 hours a week until school starts. they cut it back to 8 hours a week once school starts.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: bstutsman
Date: 2008-08-16 07:19
I'm one the people who posted these videos (and others) on YouTube. My son was a student in the Langham Creek program. I have watched numerous rehearsals of this group as well as performances. The videos linked here by Sherman were made in Feb. 2007.
What seems to make the TX band directors great is the program they grew up in. It doesn’t matter that much what university they attended.
Unlike a lot of regions around the country, they TX band directors don’t spend their time chasing notes that much. One of them told me that the secret was to get the students playing with a good sound and feeling good about it. While they did learn scales, the bulk of their time was spent on issues of tone and intonation starting in middle school. Proper playing habits are heavily stressed. (You can see that just by their posture in the videos.) When they did work on technical issues, a metronome was always in play.
Langham Creek is one of 10 high schools in the Cypress-Fairbanks district (Cy-Fair). Except for the newest school, they all have an enrollment of over 3200 students. Texas doesn't mind their schools getting large. They understand the economics of scale. This is good for band.
Cy-Fair is the 3rd largest school district in Texas (100,000 students) and 38th largest in U.S. They have an excellent private lesson program at the district level. There is a full-time employee in the music supervisor's office who does nothing but administer this program. When a student requests lessons, they are fixed up with a teacher. The teacher does not collect any money from the students. Rather, the family is billed monthly for whatever lessons took place and the teacher is paid by the district. Generally, the director will designate which day(s) will be lesson days. At Langham lesson days are like a mini-conservatory with all of the teaching going on.
The sectionals are not run by the private teacher, but by the band directors. If the teacher is available, he might be asked to assist, but most of the TX directors would rather do the sectionals themselves. Some teachers will give occasional master classes for their students.
All State band is a very big deal in TX. Here's is a link to where you can see the audition material.
http://www.tmea.org/ (Go Division, Band, AllState in the menus.)
The private teachers will use the Allstate etudes, as well as similar material, for teaching. It's all standard material you might find in the desired repertoire for a college undergrad. For clarinet they pick from the Rose Etudes. Most of the private teachers I've talked to resist working on band music unless the student requests it.
Post Edited (2008-08-20 11:38)
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Author: bstutsman
Date: 2008-08-20 18:54
brycon,
> As one of my saxophone teachers once told me- you could train monkeys > to play Stravinsky with as much rehearsal time as Texas band directors
> demand.
Wow, at the risk of being overly sensitive, I have to take severe exception to that remark being even remotely applied to these Langham Creek students. Langham Creek Symphonic will typically have several honor students in the group. This year, I believe, there was one National Merit semifinalist and three National Merit commended students in this band. I’m sure you learned a lot from your former saxophone teacher, but I think he/she needs to get out of the studio and check out the real world. They’d find that musical excellence can be achieved without the rote teaching that the remark implied.
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Author: renee
Date: 2008-08-21 00:42
I love the monkey!
Langham creek was not even that good....that clarinet, yuck. That was more than just nerves. If he was the best i would hate to hear the "musical excellence" of the other clarinets.
I have done the whole texas, and all state thing. I have nothing good to say. My last year in the all state orch was horrible!!!! the winds could not tune to save their lives!!! The brass was just loud!!! You just can't stick a marching bad in an orchestra! It was trully a "ba-and"
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-08-21 01:07
Bstutman,
My former saxophone teacher is a recording artist and top call freelancer, he knows a great deal about "the real world."
My comment was in no way meant to diminish the intellect of these students. I'm sure everyone knows that students involved in music education score higher on standardized tests than those that are not. Furthermore, I completely agree with you about musical excellence being achieved without spoon feeding.
Unfortunately spoon feeding and a lack of artistry is very common in some Texas bands. I know of one collegiate level band director that approaches interpretation by listening to a recording of the Chicago Symphony with a metronome and duplicating every tempo. This is only one example of the artistry (or lack thereof) of some Texas band directors.
Post Edited (2008-08-21 02:52)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-21 02:05
renee wrote:
> ....that clarinet, yuck. That was
> more than just nerves.
How do you know that? Are you the one we're hearing on the video?
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Author: bstutsman
Date: 2008-08-21 02:13
Well, renee, that was pretty over the top. That's the first time I heard an individual disparaged to that degree on this board. You must have quite the ax to grind. You need to stop mincing words and say what you really mean.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-21 03:10
brycon wrote:
> My comment was in no way meant to diminish the intellect of these
> students. I'm sure everyone knows that students involved in music
> education score higher on standardized tests than those that are not.
At my HS, 3 out of 4 valedictorians when I was there were band students (and this was a large 5A school). One of them, I was told, had the highest GPA of any student graduating that year in the State of Texas. Clearly band (including marching band) did not keep them from succeeding in school, which was Bill Stutsman's point, I believe.
> I know of one collegiate level band director that
> approaches interpretation by listening to a recording of the Chicago
> Symphony with a metronome a duplicating every tempo. This is only one
> example of the artistry (or lack thereof) of some Texas band directors.
What's wrong with wanting to know what tempo the CSO takes a piece? In most fields, including but not limited to music, learning from the "masters" is part of the game. Sometimes there are aspects of performance that you cannot glean from the music, and sometimes the printed music can even be characterized as "wrong," including tempo markings (some sections of Debussy's Premiere Rhapsodie, for example, are just about never taken at the indicated tempo). Listening to one of the finest orchestras in the world is not a bad way to pick up on these things.
Post Edited (2008-08-21 16:36)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-08-21 23:04
Mrn,
I did not mean to imply that students have trouble accomplishing scholastic goals because of band. You are right, of course, to assert that band students have the time to study, complete homework, etc.
With regards to listening to recordings, the director in my anecdote copies the recording tempos exactly. I listen to recordings (much more than one) when preparing for auditions so that I can hear how my part interacts with the others, the character of the piece, etc. but I would never copy someone's tempos exactly no matter how much I admire their musicianship. Furthermore, I find that the right tempo is the one that allows me to portray the form, character, etc. of a piece, not the one that allows clarinetist a, b, or c to or the one that the editor indicated in the music.
Post Edited (2008-08-21 23:09)
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2008-08-22 02:24
Listening and copying directly from what the CSO does is fine for the mediocre. But what makes a conductor world renown is their individuality - otherwise they could get maestro Joe to do it and there wouldn't be any reason to pay crazy fees to have the top tier conductors.
I had a director that did something like this and he seemed to always focus on tempos and other somewhat superfluous stuff and didn't always (hardly ever) focus on musicality.
My point is that you see where the conductor's interests lie.
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Author: RLSchwebel
Date: 2008-08-24 21:07
OK, I can't let this just go by about Texas bands...
As a product of the Texas Music Educators, if by excellence you mean...
1: Rehearsing the same marching show for three months
2: Throwing together a Christmas concert in two weeks
3: Regurgitate the same three UIL pieces for months the next semester
4: Perhaps, for a few, practice three etudes for months and months...some even make All-State
5: Throw together a solo for UIL a week before contest
6: And then, yet again, play your contest music music with something by Leroy Anderson for a Spring Concert...
Then, yes, Texas has an Excellent Music Education...
I guess thank God I made State...
~robt
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-24 22:52
brycon wrote:
> With regards to listening to recordings, the director in my anecdote
> copies the recording tempos exactly.
I see your point. That does seem like overkill (not to mention an over-focus on tempo).
One of the somewhat disturbing things I learned recently from reading a message board for Texas band directors is concerning the UIL 8 hours rule. Apparently there is a general rule in Texas regarding extra-curricular activities in which any one after-school activity is limited to 8 hours of time during the school week. Some band directors got around this rule by holding weekend rehearsals, which were not subject to the 8 hour rule. It was for this reason that TMEA and UIL created a new 8 hour rule, which applies to the entire calendar week. Apparently, some directors have chosen to bypass the rule, however, by simply opting out of participating in the UIL marching contest and participating in privately-run competitions instead.
I didn't know about this until now because, lucky for me, my HS director didn't make us do stuff like that, and my kids haven't hit HS age yet, so I haven't had a chance to see what the programs are like out here.
The best music programs (in Texas and anywhere else), IMHO, are the ones that recognize the value in developing good individual players through activities such as solo & ensemble and all-state (and by letting private teachers do their job of making this happen) and capitalize on the strengths of their individual players rather than spending inordinate amounts of time on rehearsing the entire ensemble. There are some out there--including in Texas!!
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2008-08-25 00:26
RlSchwebel........
Exactly who was holding a loaded gun to your head to force you to endure such unending hardships? It's a crime that you had to face such travesties as:
"1: Rehearsing the same marching show for three months
2: Throwing together a Christmas concert in two weeks
3: Regurgitate the same three UIL pieces for months the next semester
4: Perhaps, for a few, practice three etudes for months and months...some even make All-State
5: Throw together a solo for UIL a week before contest
6: And then, yet again, play your contest music music with something by Leroy Anderson for a Spring Concert..."
I, too, am a product of the "Texas Music Educators." I was the beneficiary of a long line of dedicated, professional music educators who were (and still are) proud members of the Texas Music Educators Association. I'm firmly convinced that my participation in in an award-winning Texas High School band (1958-1962) and a stellar college band (1962-1966) were the focal points towards what I consider was a very successful life and career. Nope, I didn't pursue a career in music. Yet, I relied on the many skills and disciplines which I learned during high school and college music studies to enable my successful career as a professional pilot.
I'm retired now. I spent 33 years flying airplanes, completely removed from music and clarinet playing. Yet, in retirement, I'm able to do something (play clarinet) which I absolutely love and enjoy. I actively play my instruments (almost daily), participate in two community ensembles, one of which has received national recognition, and entertain myself with a daily dose of chamber music as well. How many Aggies can make that claim forty-six years after they graduated high school?
I, too, made State in 1961 and 1962. I don't thank God for that. Instead I thank my parents, my high school band director, (oops.....he belonged to TMEA), and the many dedicated and professional professionals of the Texas Music Educators Association for their guidance and direction to assure that I achieved my capabilities at such a culpable age. I'm just happy that I got to grow up in the Lone Star State.
Hook 'Em,
Lynn McLarty
Austin, TX
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-25 03:06
Lynn wrote:
> I'm just happy that I got to grow up in the Lone Star State.
Me, too. (although I don't have anything against Aggies ... or Longhorns, either, since I graduated from both schools!)
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Author: RLSchwebel
Date: 2008-08-25 13:39
Hey Lynn:
First...Hook 'Em...graduated from UT Austin in 1995...looking forward to the first game this weekend...
High School Band was not torture, just tedious. My point was simple...is Music "Education" about receiving nothing but 1st Divisions...It is nothing but a trophy hunt.
I loved All-State (84-88) and Solo and Ensemble (and was successful with 1st Divivions)...that was my true education with my private instructor
I went to UT knowing nothing about Theory. Ear Training...Oh the lighter side, I can spot a Perfect 4th thanks to the Eyes of Texas...lol...
CC Wind Symphony
CC Chamber Orchestra
~robt
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