 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: csmith
Date: 2008-07-28 20:38
I have a couple of older mouthpieces (20 years old) that I tried to clean using plain old warm tap water. Both of them changed color to a tan or butterscotch. Is this normal?!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-28 20:52
That sounds very strange. Do you have well water, or city water with a lot of chemicals in it? The common way to clean a mouthpiece is warm water and mild soap. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 a little Mozart
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2008-07-29 14:36
My guess, as an engineer who was once in charge of a drinking water system, is that somebody added too much chlorine to the drinking water. The way the drinking water regs are set up, most systems add more than they need so that they are less likely to mess up on the low side.
Penalties for butterscotch mouthpieces are not nearly as severe as for accidently leaving coliform bacteria in the system, which can result from under chlorination.
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Author: csmith
Date: 2008-07-29 15:29
Thank you very much for your replies.
I live out in the country and have "rural water", which is probably treated well water. I had a lab analysis done on my water a year ago and discovered it has high sodium content. There was no mention of chlorine at that time. That may have changed since then.
Other than the sodium, the only other thing I can think of is the age of the mouthpieces and the water temperature. If I got the water too warm/hot I wonder if that would have caused the discoloration? It is indeed very odd! Now I'm skiddish about cleaning any other mouthpieces at home!
Yeah, I would much prefer chlorine over coliform!
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-07-29 16:32
csmith,
Relax, it happens all the time. I'll clean about 100 mouthpieces a month and some of them (mostly the older ones) will turn green or butterscotch.
I have a buffing wheel with the appropriate rouge here so I can buff them back to a nice looking black. If there's a shop near by I'm pretty sure they can get the green out quickly.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-07-29 16:39
Chlorine bleach can actually be used to turn a discolored mouthpiece back to black (though it will be dull, not shiny and needs buffing to return its shine) so I doubt chlorine in the water would have caused your problem. On the other hand washing it with water that is too warm/hot absolutely can cause a hard rubber mouthpiece to discolor. I have no doubt that Ed has successfully used warm water for years with no problem but I'd bet it has been lukewarm at most. The recommendations I have seen generally have called for cool water. The age of the mouthpieces may have made them more sensitive. Perhaps Omar can chime in.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2008-07-29 16:39)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-07-29 16:59
csmith- did you *soak* the mouthpiece in water?
Soaking for long periods will cause discoloring- even with the purest water.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-07-29 17:41
I frequently soak eBay-purchased mouthpieces in water with hydrogen peroxide to disinfect them. As long as I've used cold water (from the tap), I've never had a problem. Ditto for mouthpieces I've soaked in the Dr.'s mouthpiece cleaner.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-07-29 18:37
I have a Vandoren M13 and a Fobes San Fransisco. The M13 was bought new, but wasn't buffed when i purchased it. It was just stamped with the logo. Each time i washed it, it would turn colors. I just put up with it because after a few days the color would go away and it would be black again.
My Fobes however is polished, or buffed, and I never have any problem with discoloration when i wash it. I've seen another Vandy turn very, very green when someone cleaned the mp with that minty alcohol disenfectant spray. It's just an esthetic problem. have it buffed at a shop, but beat it into them that they must not touch the rails. in fact cover the table of the mp with very sticky masking tape. maybe two or three layers just to be safe.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-29 20:15
Next time try beer, can't go wrong. If it doesn't work at least you can drink the left over beer. Hey kids, I'm kidding. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-07-30 05:39
hot water is a catalyst in addition to maybe the possible sulphur? or rust in the water which will bond to the molecules. usually when a mouthpiece turns colors, it is stabilizing the open pores by oxidation.
that was a rough explanation, but omar and vytass know much more about the chemistry behind this.
the search feature in the archives will explain this situation as there have been many conversations about this in the past.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-07-30 10:34
Hard to tell. You are just on the other end of reactive sulfur molecules in your old mouthpieces that were put into a chemically reactive state by something in the water. Usually the reaction is accelerated by heat, sunlight, reactive oxygen molecules - e.g. ozone (although this is not an oxidation reaction) and perhaps a metal catalyst - the most common are zinc, iron, manganese, etc. which form the intermediate chemical situations that allow sulfur to react with these inorganic ions to form the more stable colored sulfur compounds. Old mouthpieces are best kept black by keeping them cool (other than the 37 degrees C from hot breath) and out of sunlight. I also wax the outside to prevent interaction with some oxygen. The basic culprit is the excess sulfur migrating to the surface of the mouthpiece and this is variable between batches of hard rubber. The most complaints that I hear about changing coloration come from old Selmer mouthpiece owners. In modern rubber manufacture there are stabilizers and UV inhibitors which slow the tendency of color change and modern catalysts do not require the huge excess of sulfur used for vulcanization in old rubber manufacture.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: csmith
Date: 2008-07-30 19:33
Thank you all for the feedback! I think the problem must have been the water temperature. After reading all of your replies I'm sure it must have been too hot. I only ran water over the mouthpieces for a few seconds (no soaking) and then dried them off with a cotton rag, immediately noticing the discoloration. I have washed plenty of mouthpieces in the past but must have used either cool or lukewarm water before.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, Omar. I enjoy chemistry and appreciate the time you spent providing a reason for the discoloration at the molecular level. Good stuff!
This is a very knowledgeable board, and I greatly appreciate all of your input!
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