 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-06-24 03:03
Disclaimer: The following informal, somewhat crude, testing was done solely for the purpose of establishing a reed that's playable for me, a beginner. In no way do I intend to say anything bad about Rico or Van Doren reeds; I'm only trying to convey to others what I have found that works for me. The Rico reeds referred to below worked well for me in the beginning, and to be fair to Rico, I have not tried any of their reeds stronger than a 2-1/2; conversely, I'm sure their stronger reeds (#3 and above) would perform better for me than the smaller numbered ones do.
During my engineering career, I performed much testing of materials, so I thought I'd do some simple testing of some of my beginner reeds, and some that's not-so-beginner reeds (I'm currently in my 11th week learning to play the clarinet).
What led up to the tests was that I started out playing a #2 Rico, but after the 1st week, my teacher put me on #2-1/2 Ricos. Last week he allowed me to go to a 2-1/2 Van Doren (Paris), which most charts say is a bit stronger than the 2-1/2 Ricos.
It turns out that I was still not getting the tone (even after adjusting my embouchure a bit) that I (and my teacher, of course) was looking for. So just this week, without my teacher's consent, I thought I'd try some #3 Van Doren (Paris) reeds. I figured that I wouldn't be able to play them very well since they are stronger, but they sounded better, to me anyway, than the 2-1/2's, and they really didn't seem to be harder for me to play.
But getting back to the actual testing, I used my electronic tuner to quantify my findings. Also, I tried to use my very best embouchure for these tests.
I first played the old #2 Rico reed, and my notes say, "flat in about all tones played (Low E to C above the staff)".
Next, I tried the 2-1/2 Rico reeds, and they were fair, but very inconsistent between tones...some right on the money; some sharp; and some flat.
Next the 2-1/2 VD's. Much more consistent, but still not to my liking (some varience in tones being mostly sharp, but a bit flat on some, too).
And then the #3 VD's. MUCH more consistent all way up the range stated above. The only real flat occured on Low E, but I attribute that to my clarinet, not the reed.
So that I wouldn't be biased, I put all reeds used in a pile (careful not to nick the tips), picked out one at a time, and very carefully and without looking on the back before playing, played each of them again. The results were very consistent with my previous findings.
Now a question for the pros and/or teachers reading this. Wouldn't you agree that I should now play on #3 reeds instead of something weaker, even though I'm still very much a beginner? After all, good tone is what my teacher has been preaching to me at every lesson I've had.
Before you tell me to ask my teacher, I will certainly ask him, too, of course, but excellent as he is, he does have a big ego, and I have to be careful (been burned before) of bringing up such things before he does, or he accuses me of trying to do to much on my own (I bought a new Fobes Debut mp..he'd never heard of one...without his permission, and he about went ballistic until he played it; then he was fine with it).
CarlT
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-24 03:31
Next time you go in for your lesson, don't tell him you bought new reeds and use the 3s. See if he comments on your improved tone and consistancy. If he does, then tell him you changed strengths. He sounds like he needs a reality check. Who hasn't heard of the Debut? Who hasn't heard of Fobes for that matter?
Forget "insulting" his ego and do what feels best to you. Even though you are a beginner, you sound like you are confident with your decision and you've done your homework.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-06-24 03:32
This is an interesting issue which is much more a psychological one than a purely quantifiable one. In the interest of continuing your clarinet lessons, I would recommend not jangling the teacher's nerves too much. After all, there will still be much more practical information that he will be able to impart......if he choses to.
That said, I NEVER played anything weaker than a #3 Vandoren. I know all the theory behind why teaches start the youth on them, but I just don't think you can produce real sound from them. Of course, don't confuse a base line with the idea that ever increasing reed strength and mouthpiece openning is better and better - this is NOT the case.
What you have right now is good. Stick with that and the lessons for awhile.
Good luck!
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-24 04:55
>> and he about went ballistic until he played it
Maybe, like a lot of people, he is just a type of person who gets mad easily.
If Vandoren strength 3 reeds work better, then maybe for you with your mouthpiece they fit better. Even if you are wrong (which is unlikely but still possible) I don't see why the teacher would have a problem with you trying these reeds and compare with his help.
>> I NEVER played anything weaker than a #3 Vandoren
I never played anything harder than a #3 Vandoren 
Post Edited (2008-06-24 04:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-24 06:20
Your tests seem to concentrate on intonation (i.e. pitch) to the exclusion of tone quality (i.e. timbre) and articulation, which are very nearly as important.
The danger of using reeds that are too hard is that you may sacrifice tone quality, particularly in the lower register, and you may make tonguing unnecessarily difficult. The instrument needs to speak easily with a smooth current of air - if you are forcing it to speak on each note then you will not be blowing properly. Only change to the harder reeds if you are happy that you are not creating problems for yourself in these areas.
You don't say what your previous mouthpiece was; the more open the mouthpiece, the softer the reeds it needs.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-06-24 11:42
CarlT,
An interesting little study. Nice work.
But when I put on my researcher hat, I must ask "how many of each reed strength did you try." Your blind test is interesting but a double blind test be a better experimental design. But don't take my comments negatively, I am just trying to suggest a way to achieve a more valid and reliable result.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-06-24 12:04
I can't play anything harder than a #3 either (not to say that I haven't tried in the past!) - but then I play Vandoren mouthpieces where that's at the mid-upper end of what the manufacturers recommend.
I say play what sounds good. A competent teacher will be able to pull you up and ask to see the reed if there's a problem, based on sound alone. (At least, that's what my old teacher used to do.)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2008-06-24 12:09
What mouthpiece did you use to perform the test on these reeds? A #2 reed on a Vandoren 5RV mouthpiece indeed WILL sound flat. The reed is too thin for that mouthpiece curve.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-06-24 14:04
<<Your tests seem to concentrate on intonation (i.e. pitch) to the exclusion of tone quality (i.e. timbre) and articulation, which are very nearly as important>>
Norbert, yes, I am aware of tone quality, as well. I very much believe that in my own case, my tone quality is significantly better with the #3 Vandorens. As for articulation, that remains to be seen; however, again, I believe that it's no worse and perhaps maybe better.
<<You don't say what your previous mouthpiece was; the more open the mouthpiece, the softer the reeds it needs>>
The mp used in my test is a Fobes Debut. I used to use the Bundy mp that came with my rental clarinet. When I took it back and bought my own clarinet (2 weeks ago), I got the Fobes mp. I do not know how relatively open/closed it is. Would someone tell me? It's supposed to be for beginners (and perhaps intermediates) I'm pretty sure.
Hank said <<how many of each reed strength did you try?>>
I tried 2 reeds of each size except for the #2 Rico (I only had one of these left).
<<What mouthpiece did you use to perform the test on these reeds?>>
Bill, a Fobes Debut.
FWIW I am also a woodworker and belong to a couple of great WWing forums. I learned so much from those forums. Now I am learning so much from you guys (and gals), as well. I am one who takes pride in being able to know when information is good and when it should be taken with a grain of salt (age helps I guess). As I said, I just think this forum is very good for a clarinetist of any level, and I appreciate you.
Just yesterday, I read a post by a Physics student who was asking about harmonics and the clarinet, and someone pointed out a great website on the subject. Now I eat this stuff up, and for me, knowing about harmonics and such things is a plus. Does a professional have to know this to able to play? Obviously not, but for me it's part of the intrigue. Sorry for getting off the subject.
CarlT
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vjoet
Date: 2008-06-24 14:29
Hi Carl,
I commend you for taking up the clarinet. It is a wonderfully expressive instrument. :-)
I personally mentally divide the instrument into a pitch generating system, and a sound generating system. The embouchure-mouthpiece-reed constitutes the sound generating system.
The player's concept of his ideal tone comes much into play here. I feel too often young players strive for that Morales dark tone by playing on harder and harder reeds, to the detriment of tonal color and dynamic range.
For me, the sound of Harold Wright, Simeon Bellison, Stanley Drucker, Kathy Pope, Benny Goodman is the ideal. I hear it as mellow with an edge; whereas I hear Morales as more of a dead sound. (Others -- in this area of art -- will have other opinions, and that is as it should be.)
I personally play on Vandoren 3's or Zonda 2 1/2E, and adjust reeds with sandpaper and the Reed Wizard. I like free blowing reeds, with mellowness and an edge. Once adjusted I classify into practice reeds, and performance reeds.
Again congratulations on taking up the clarinet. You'll find that you will lament the time you spend working on reeds, but -- to my way of thinking -- it is the reed that imbues the clarinet with a human soul, something I don't find in the flute, for example.
Best wishes,
Vann Joe
(amateur)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-06-24 23:24
Given the fact that I tested all the above reeds using my Fobes Debut mouthpiece, would you think that mp will likely serve me through beginning, as well as (if I make it that far) intermediate playing? At what stage of progress do you think I should even worry about a more closed (or is it open?) mp?
I already own a Vandoren B45 mp that's hardly been out of the box because it seemed much too hard for me the few times I tried it. Maybe someday I will grow into it(???).
CarlT
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-06-24 23:33
I believe the Fobes Debut has the same facing as his CF+ model. The only difference is that the Debut is made out of a plastic material as opposed to hard rubber. Your fine for now and in the future....the debut is a very good mouthpiece at a very cheap price.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-24 23:59
The Debut does have the CF+ facing like in the San Fransisco (which I have and love). I've tried the Debut, and it was fairly similar compared side by side to my San Fransisco.
I think it's an excellent student mouthpiece, especially for the price.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2008-06-25 05:05
Carl --
You are doing great for an 11 week player!
Seems to me that your teacher is the one with the problem. Alas, this sort of control freak approach is all too common with music teachers regardless of the instrument involved or the life experience or age of the student.
If you were my student I would be thrilled that you were seeking answers to playing problems through actual experimentation and I would encourage you to apply that approach to all of the playing problems you encounter.
My typical advice to young players who ask about reeds, mouthpieces or embouchures is to experiment, then go with what works best for you, but keep on experimenting.
As other posters have noted, the Fobes Debut is a fine mouthpiece and possibly the biggest bargain on the market today.
The facing of the Debut (~1 mm tip; ~16-17 mm length depending on how you measure it) is what us old timers would call a "medium french" facing, although by today's standards it would be considered a "close" facing.
As to optimum reed strength for a mpce such as the Fobes Debut, you might wish to google Clark Fobes San Francisco for his website and then read his article titled something like 'Intonation for young clarinet players'. You wll be pleasantly surprised at the confluence of his recommendations with the conclusions you reached through your own experiment.
(Shameless plug -- Ben Redwine is a frequent and knowledgeable contributor to this forum. He makes an excellent mouthpiece which like the Fobes Debut can be had for less $$ than a tank of gas. Google Redwine and Gennusa for particulars and ordering info).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: timg
Date: 2008-06-25 13:58
Also a beginner (of 12 months), I too have found harder reeds can be easier to use. Particularly in the altissimo range, it's easier to hit the note with a #3.5 than with my usual #3s (Vandoren reeds and M30 mouthpiece). However the harder reeds can sound airy and after just 10-20 minutes playing I'm tired out. On the other hand, when I get the air and embouchure just right the sound from the softer reeds is perfectly fine. I think this means the 3.5s are too hard, and it's better to stick to the 3s and learn to improve my technique.
The ballistic teacher sounds a bit over sensitive, but I do sympathise with teachers asking their students to stick to a particular mouthpiece or reed. The teacher has a difficult job because he has to teach us to control many variables (lip shape, pressure from the facial muscles, throat shape, air support from the stomach and diaphragm muscles), many of which he can't check except very indirectly by listening to the sound of the instrument. I can understand the frustration of a teacher whose student adds even more variables to the mixture by fiddling about with different mouthpieces.
-Tim
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
