 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-19 13:11
Hello
I'm interested to know some of the REAL differences between Buffet models. Especially the Prestige vs. the "regulars" and the R13 vs. RC.
If I remember right someone from Buffet told me the only differences between Prestige and non-Prestige but same model is the Prestige always use heart wood (and they use the best wood for those models) plus they have metal tenon caps. According to Wikipedia the Prestige actually has a different (smaller) bore than the non-Prestige(!?).
If these models are otherwise physically the same, are the Prestige models get some sort of extra play testing or other quality control, etc. to justify (or not) the much higher price?
According to Wikipedia the only differences between the R13 and the RC are the barrel and bell. I can't notice any difference in the barrel (but didn't measure yet) but the bell is obviously different with a much shaprer angle in the RC bell. Just looking at them, I found the register hole is higher on the RC. I have heard the register tube itself is also different. But is the bore itself different? Or using the same barrel and bell, notes which don't use the register hole are exactly the same on these two models?
I'm less interested in differences in sound and playing, like those noticed by people who tested a lot of these models, but more in the physical differences.
It seems like Wikipedia has a lot of wrong facts on the Buffet models.
Thanks!
Post Edited (2008-06-19 14:37)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-06-19 13:42
"It seems like Wikipedia has a lot of wrong facts on the Buffet models."
More like Wikipedia has a lot of wrong facts in general.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-06-19 13:55
No two are alike, for any make and any model. Try before buy. And try about 20 of each if possible.
richard smith
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-06-19 14:32
Is there a broken record in here?
Clarnibass, You might start with the descriptions at the Buffet website.
<www.buffet-crampon.com>
Read the specifications and characteristics, too. They don't give a lot of information but at least it is official. An e-mail to Francois Kloc with your question would likely generate some additional facts.
Take this with a grain of salt but my understanding has always been that Presitige models of the various clarinets were essentially the same design as the non-Prestige model, distinguished primarily by quality of materials and perhaps some standard "extras" such as a left-hand Ab/Eb key, possibly an adjustable thumb rest, etc.
Relative to the R13, it was my impression that the RC (designed perhaps 20 or so years later by Robert Caree) had a different bore and bell. The Buffet website says that the RC has a polycylindrical upper joint. I thought Caree used different measurements but I might be wrong about that. Also, it may have evolved over time. Francois could probably tell you. The website makes a point of noting that the lower joint has a conical bore and the bell is of different design internally -- a somewhat egg-shaped cavity at the top if memory serves.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2008-06-19 15:24)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-06-19 14:40
I've found the Prestiges to play consistantly brighter, with slightly less resistance than their R13 brothers. I always thought of them as the "New Coke" to market against the rise in popularity of the Leblancs at the time of their introduction. Good horn, just a little different.
The RCs marketed in the states are only slightly different in that the third octave seems to play a bit lower.
I don't really know anything about the measurements and all, one versus another, just going by what they play like for me.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-06-19 15:05
Clarnibass:
A few things I have been told:
1- There are a few bore designs that have been called the R13.
2- The modern RC and R13 have the same upper joint, except for the register being higher and a different tube on the RC. The RC lower joint is more conical than the R13.
3- Both RC and R13 Prestige models have the same acoustical design as their non prestige counter part except for an egg shaped bell bore on the RC prestige.
4- The Prestige models always have silver plated keys, come with the Eb/A lever as standard, have higher quality pads (if you like Gore-Tex) and are supposed to have better wood and have spent a little more time in the factory for testing.
5- The Prestige have teh Prestige logo on them, very *very* important, it makes your sound so much more ... prestigious
This is second hand information, although I am pretty sure this is true...
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2008-06-19 15:06)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-06-19 15:14
I have an RC (not the RC Prestige), and find it indistinguishable from my teacher's R13 for intonation, needing to use the same alternate fingerings in the altissimo that he uses.
These two clarinets, however, have much different tonal qualities.
We have swapped barrels and bells (the RC bell does have a hard-to-see "scoop" near its tenon socket.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2008-06-19 23:48
I had a R13 and a R13 Prestige one point.
The fact is that the Prestige looked better but the regular played better.
Prestige had a nasal sound.
I sold both of them,and got another used R13 which plays wonderfully.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-20 04:23
Thanks very much.
Maybe I should have mentioned more clearly that I'm not looking to buy another clarinet, and that I've played many of each of these models. Plus the differences in playing etc. are simply irelevant for the purpose I'm interested in this. OTOH I don't need exact measurements either.
I just checked the bell of the RC (Prestige) and I didn't notice at first but right before the sharp angle there is a slightly egg shape. Can anyone with an RC (non-Prestige) check whether their clarinet has that also?
I don't know who Fanrcois is or how to contact him, but I emailed someone else who I think is a consultant for Buffet and he might know.
Thanks again!
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-20 06:49
clarnibass - Francois Kloc works for Buffet. An out-of-date biography is at http://www.a-to-gmusic.org/a2g-2007/tips/TipsTricksBasicTuningPrinciples-Clar.htm.
He is a user on this BBoard, and gives his email address in his profile as francois.kloc@buffetcrampon.fr, as is readily found on Google.
I'm sure he knows the answers. If I were he, I would want to know why you're asking.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-20 08:08
Thanks Norbert, I might try it although I think I know most of what I wanted. If I was him, I wouldn't really mind why I'm asking, but if he does want to know, I would have no problem telling him.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-06-20 13:40
Clarnibass, my Bb RC prestige has the egg shaped bell, my A RC does not have it.
Of course that does not mean somebody does not own a regular RC with an egg shaped bell...
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: D
Date: 2008-06-20 13:47
""It seems like Wikipedia has a lot of wrong facts on the Buffet models."
More like Wikipedia has a lot of wrong facts in general."
If it is wrong is it still a fact?...
Bob, what happened when you swapped barrels and bells? And is it actually the clarinets or is it that you sound like you and your teacher sounds like your teacher whatever you play.
Post Edited (2008-06-20 18:09)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-06-20 14:56
D,
We put my RC bell on my teacher's R13. He has an enviable ringing tone (when he wants it). My bell made no difference in the sound of his clarinet.
Then, we tried the opposite, we put his bell and mouthpiece on my RC. It sounded hugely different than his R13! With the RC bell on the RC clarinet with his mouthpiece and him playing, it sounded hugely different than his R13.
I would swap my RC for the teacher's R13 in an instant --even with its worn plating.
Claribass,
I think that the manufacturing differences between Buffet clarinets are wider than the difference between models. Thus, if there is a significant design difference between Buffet models, it is still easy (given enough samples) to find an R13 that is "better" than a Tosca.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-20 15:39
> Claribass, I think that the manufacturing differences between
> Buffet clarinets are wider than the difference between models.
> Thus, if there is a significant design difference between Buffet
> models, it is still easy (given enough samples) to find an R13
> that is "better" than a Tosca.
That's possible, though "better" is already getting into opinion which is not what I was asking about. For example a great RC and a bad RC will both have the same design and same differences (i.e. higher and different register tube, etc.) compared with R13.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-06-20 15:47
"Can anyone with an RC (non-Prestige) check whether their clarinet has that also?"
Buffet's website has the answer to this question.
jnk
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-06-20 19:22
-- "I'm sure he knows the answers. If I were he, I would want to know why you're asking." --
Clarnibass is asking because a new clarinet is bloody expensive! Clarnibass asked a very straightforward question. What are the differences?
If that question is impossible to answer, please explain why.
Steve
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-20 19:57
Steve - not to get in an argument over this, but if someone came to my company and said, as clarnibass said:
"that I'm not looking to buy another clarinet, and that I've played many of each of these models. Plus the differences in playing etc. are simply irelevant for the purpose I'm interested in this. OTOH I don't need exact measurements either."
.... then before answering his questions I would want to know why he was asking. Simple matter of commercial confidentiality.
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Author: D
Date: 2008-06-20 20:35
So is the question "what is the physical difference that justifies the price gap between instruments?" Thing is, if it was - for example - the bore shape that made a difference in price because the higher price one was better, then surely they would make all their clarinets with that shape bore so all their clarinets would be better and they could take over the world (of clarinets that is). So if it is a manufacture thing then it must be something that costs more to produce. Manufacture costs would be affected (I believe) by increased labour time, increased skill required, more expensive materials.
It is an interesting question. And a fair point made by several that the set up so affects the playing of instruments that it is very very difficult to say which is better by playing a few of them. Which is ludicrous, but true.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-06-20 21:15
-- "Steve - not to get in an argument over this," --
No argument whatsoever, merely an interesting discussion on the real differences between models, something that is incredibly interesting to clarinetists.
Re. commercial confidentiality, well nobody is asking how the models are manufactured, only the actual dimensions and how they vary. This has been discussed on this forum for all clarinets for many years.
If a car salesman declined to tell me the differences in storage space between two cars due to 'commercial confidentiality', what's to stop me from measuring them myself?
All we need is a volunteer to fill their clarinet with plaster, then break it open and measure and photograph the cast.
I await this new forum database with baited breath! :-)
Steve
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-06-20 22:57
Clarnibass,
I'm sorry that I'm so late but I went through 6 RC Buffet R13s and none of them had that little scoop in the bell. I think that might only be the prestige models.
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2008-06-21 00:07
Our workshop managed to take some measurements of the bore of some of the models of the upper tenon and we found the Tosca to be at 14.9mm. The RC Prestige seems to have a narrower top than the RC.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Chan
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2008-06-21 00:33
Majority of Buffet customers are amateures and music lovers,not really
professional players.
When they are looking for instruments,many doesn't know whom to ask or doesn't want to bother to ask someone else for testing horns.
When they read Buffet ads on catalog ,Prestige seems very promising.
They think it'll be better than regular R13 because it is more expensive.
Common sense tells them " Lexus is better than Camry and Camry is better than Corolla etc. therefore Prestige must be better than Regular.""
Manufactures are playing those mental games.
If everyone is able to play and test clarinets at a professional level,they wouldn't make so many different models (Prestige ,Tosca etc.)
Last time when I counted,Buffet makes 17 different Bb models.
I think it's overkill,but apparently,it's working for Buffet co.
Less than 1 % of this BBoard members are making money just playing
clarinets.
Post Edited (2008-06-21 00:36)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-21 03:43
>> Buffet's website has the answer to this question.
Yes, but what people post here contradicts it...
>> Clarnibass is asking because a new clarinet is bloody expensive!
Not really.
>> then before answering his questions I would want to know
>> why he was asking. Simple matter of commercial confidentiality.
And as I already said that I would have no problem telling him (or anyone) why if they asked.
>> So is the question "what is the physical difference that
>> justifies the price gap between instruments?"
No. The question was only the first part "what is the physical difference?". I tried to phrase my question very specifically, and I mentioned justifying (or not) the higher price only to ask whether the Prestige get some more quality control. Whether it justifies the higher price wasn't a part of the question, because that's really something that can only be determinded by a player testing the instruments and deciding for themselves, i.e. subjective as opposed to facts I was looking for.
>> Thing is, if it was - for example - the bore shape that made
>> a difference in price because the higher price one was better,
>> then surely they would make all their clarinets with that shape
>> bore so all their clarinets would be better and they could take
>> over the world (of clarinets that is).
It's also possible they offer several differnt bore shapes, one not necessarily better than another, just different, because that is determined by the player, though one is more expensive to make (for example takes longer).
I have no problem with people posting answers to things I didn't ask, but if what I asked wasn't clear you can always ask me to clarify it (I prefer that to misinterpreting what I wrote).
Thanks.
Post Edited (2008-06-21 05:24)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-06-21 04:52
"Yes, but what people post here contradicts it..."
Ah, but does it? Really?
Sylvain says his information is "second-hand."
Bob Phillips says his (non-Prestige) RC "does have a hard-to-see "scoop" near its tenon socket." [emphasis mine]
Scott Brodt "went through 6 RC Buffet R13s." So what did he look at? RCs? R13s? Does he know the difference? (If they were RC's, I'm amazed that he could find 6 in one place in eastern Pennsylvania -- they are not nearly as common in the US as they are, e.g., in Europe.)
Also, let's not forget that the RC has been around for 30 years, give or take. It's possible (but I don't know for sure about this) that the bell's design was changed at some point during that period. Buffet has been known to do that sort of thing. The Buffet website describes current design. But, if the bell's design was changed, someone who doesn't have the "egg shape" might be looking at an instrument made before the change.
Frankly, it seems to me that questions of fact are best asked of people who know the facts (and take the trouble to read/listen to the questions carefully). But I guess that's just another of my character flaws.
jnk
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-21 05:33
So I'll just believe what the website says unless I find a current RC and see it doesn't have that bell. I emailed Francois like you sauggested and also waiting for reply from another person who might be able to know. Though I think I found most of what I wanted to know.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-06-21 12:42
I think the RC bell resonance chamber was probably introduced sometime between the late '80s and the early '90s as instruments from the mid '80s have a normal bell flare.
Yamaha have taken on this idea and even incorporate it in the YCL-250.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-06-21 16:01
The scoop in the bell is first hand as I own both an RC (A) and RC prestige (Bb).
The bore shape info comes from Guy Chadash.
The register key placement and shape is first hand info comparing to R13s
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-06-21 16:24
Sylvain,
When I posted my message I had forgotten about your second post. How old are your clarinets?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-06-21 20:19
RC Prestige is from 1995 and RC is from 2000
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-06-22 01:49
I have a set of Prestiges from 1988 and they are darker than any R13 I have ever tried.
When I selected them, they from over 50 clarinets that I tried.
However they needed just as much work done to them as a regular R13 would. (pads not seating, register tube causing grunt in the A CL. , etc.
I also wonder if they are thicker walled.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: hartt
Date: 2008-06-22 08:16
.......Chris P
the RC bell resonance chamber was introduced when the RC was introduced; I believe that was in 1973 or 1974. (nickel plate was std and silver was optional)
I had a 1974 and a 1975 Anniversary Model RC that visibly had the reams below the bell socket.
Compared to an R13, I did not find any difference in the BBL's.
The bore was smaller and seemingly gave that 'French' sound.
It may of had a different bore altogether.
The sound was thinner than any of my R13's or Vintages. It also lacked 'power'. Clearly, it could not be 'pushed'. Others played them and felt the same.
Interestingly, a test consisting of swapping bells proved the RC bell detracted from the R13's sound and vise versa. In fact, R13 bells made the RC play like a horse dropping at the starting gate.
I didn't particularly care for it's unique sound, in fact I really didn't like it, and sold them.
Of interest is that today, an RC is priced close to a Vintage model.
regards
dennis
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-06-22 11:32
hmmm
i had a late 1970s RC A clarinet... this didn't have the "egg" shape in the bell, additionally the top end of the bell (where it joined the lower joint) didn't have the "choke" of the R13 bells. This "choke" effect (where the top of the bell is smaller than the bottom of the joint, apparently this reflects sound waves back up the instrument) is sometimes removed or reduced from R13 bells by certain customisers etc (for example, Daniel Paproki told me his long time R13 A had had the choke lessened).
This RC clarinet had a great tone, intonation similar to an "average" R13A, but was a bit tricky to play above F dynamics and didn't match my B flat very well so I sold it to a student.
At any rate, it didn't have the egg shape in the bell, though i've certainly seen this in newer RC clarinets.
dn
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-22 16:46
After looking at the lower joint more I found another difference. This is between an RC PRestige and an R13 Prestige - the R13 has a part cut out of the body under the right hand E/B and F#/C# keys, and the bird's foot, while the RC doesn't. This matches a slightly different angle of those keys.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-06-23 19:09
It's kind of like ordering a Rib eye and fillet mignon. The subtleties are there, but only if you really sit down and concentrate. For me, the difference is pretty clear: the r13 has a warm, flexible sound that reminds me of finger painting. The r13 prestige has a more piercing prescience but still retains some of the finger like painting of it's predecessor. the key is the piercing in the sound.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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