 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-06-16 15:48
These are some new videos of Sabine M. playing Poulenc, Bernstein, & etc. Some people think Sabine moves about a lot...but check out her pianist on these!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cl688URsA4Q&feature=r
Clarinet Redux
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2008-06-16 20:32
Her pianist is not just some random accompanist, he is the internationally-renowned Turkish soloist Fazil Say, and he is an astonishing musician. (Much like Sabine...) Who really cares how much he moves?
He is a wonderful player, incredibly creative (he's a brilliant composer/arranger as well as a virtuoso pianist), and a very, very nice person. (I've had occasion to meet him several times, as he is very close friends with my roommate here in New York, Turkish viola soloist Sila Eser.)
I don't think I've ever seen you be able to mention Sabine or anything having to DO with Sabine without talking about how much she moves...why is this such an obsessive bone of contention with you?
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-16 20:45
The pianist is indeed interesting, and musical. However in hearing and seeing SM playing something slow and lyrical, one is disappointed. For instance, why does she articulate the altissimo G?(Poulenc) This , she has to do. Why? One the whole,it is not beautiful playing, regardless of the deep-knee bends. The Bernstein is wildly inaccurate, from the tempi(which are strictly marked) to note errors and the pianist who needs a coach in the lyric solo section prior to the return of the scherzo. The clarinet is marked pianissimo and she is playing full mezzo-forte.
Sorry. No sale.
Sherman Friedland
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-06-16 23:48)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-06-16 21:24
Sherman, I am a bit confused by a couple of sentences in your last post. They read, "For instance, why does she articulate the altissimo G? This, she has to do. Why?"
Did you mean to ask "Why does she tongue the G, because she really shouldn't?" Or did you mean to ask "Why doesn't she tongue the G, because she really has to to play this correctly?" Or did you mean something else?
I highly respect your opinions, so I'd like to know what you meant.
Incidentally, just so we are on the same page, it looks like you are referring to measure 44. The edition I own (2006 edition) shows a slur in measure 43, then a new slur in measure 44 starting on the altissimo G (which would indicate that you would tongue the G itself, but slur the rest of the bar).
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-06-16 21:38
I'm amused to hear, 40 seconds into the documentary video, that the clarinet is "a formerly unpopular instrument."
Whether the clarinet was unpopular with children choosing what instrument to learn, or unpopular with the public, is not specified.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2008-06-16 21:41
"One the whole, it is not beautiful playing"
Help me to understand why it is not, e.g.what aspect is 'not beautiful', how to make it musical, etc. Essentially I am asking what should I do when I pick up a piece cold and maximize my performance for the sake of the audience (or whomever...) Although I love her playing (and moving, etc.), you apparently see, hear and know something I don't, and I'd like to sensitize myself to what is beyond SM.
Thanks.
(PS I don't have a score so I can't follow your comments if they're referenced to the score, unless there's an easy source for the score.)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-06-16 21:59
He may be a good musican, but his on stage behavior in this video is nuts! He made Sabine look restrained and almost dignified. She performed this familar staple from the printed score...bush league!?
Clarinet Redux
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-06-16 22:42
Actually, there are several clips of professional players playing this piece on YouTube, including Michael Collins and Pascual Martinez Forteza. I have yet to find one here the clarinettist isn't reading off of sheet music. So I see no reason to fault Sabine Meyer for using sheet music, either.
I liked that clip about Sabine Meyer's grammy nomination, especially the part where she talks about the idea of playing the Mozart concerto in a packed football stadium and says she'll leave that to other people to do.
"Mega-events and star publicity...Sabine Meyer doesn't need them. Her CDs sell in the 100,000s anyway."
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2008-06-17 01:41
Poulenc = A German playing French Music (misses the elegance and nuance for me)
Bernstein = A German playing American music (misses the playful quality and spunky aspects of this piece)
Why is everything so loud in her playing? Not much introspection, color, or variety of style for me.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-06-17 03:50
Dileep Gangolli wrote:
> Poulenc = A German playing French Music (misses the elegance and nuance for me)
More specifically, a German playing music written by a French composer famous for thumbing his nose at the elegance and nuance of French impressionism in favor of musical Dadaism--the anti-Debussy, if you will.
Interestingly enough, when I asked people a few weeks ago whose recording of Debussy's Premiere Rhapsodie they liked the best, Sabine Meyer's name came up the most often...
> Bernstein = A German playing American music (misses the playful
> quality and spunky aspects of this piece)
More specifically, a German playing an American piece written largely in the style of a German composer (Hindemith).
Regardless of what you think of Ms. Meyer's playing, I really don't think it's fair to stereotype these pieces according to the composer's nationality.
Funny that it always seems to be us Americans who think Germans don't know how to play French music and that from the other side of the Atlantic we somehow know better...
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2008-06-17 09:58
"Poulenc = A German playing French Music (misses the elegance and nuance for me)
Bernstein = A German playing American music (misses the playful quality and spunky aspects of this piece)"
I agree with mrn, the first part of each statement is of course true...she is a German playing French and American music, so what? You don't like her interpretation because of her nationality? The reasons which you have given for actually not liking her playing have absolutely nothing to do with her nationality. Your statement would also suggest that entire nations of people play the same way. In fact not even members of the same family play the same way - Wolfgang Meyer is a very different entity for example.
I of course being British will go and get my 1010s out now and start playing with a broad sound and vibrato, or maybe if that's alright with you I might stick with my own style rather than sticking to a national stereotype.
Old Geezer, once again I suggest that you simply listen to the sound and shut your eyes, as there seems to be nobody you can bear to watch as they play.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-17 10:36
Here, here Danny Boy. Sabine is a wonderful clarinetist and should be treated as such. I think she does a great job on both those pieces. I'd like to hear some of you guys play like that.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-17 11:31
mrn: what I meant is that she articulated it in such a way as was obvious and for me, ungainly.Essentially, this is a piece of lyric vocal music. I did not sense anything vocal in the playing.
To respond to another persons question, the first duty we all have is to play accurately and to the composers direction.
Neither player does it in either case.
There is in the Bernstein, a lovely section of pure counterpoint for the pianist, in which is hidden the main melody. The fellow, all smiles and happiness plays it like a chord progression.
Incidentally, there are few pianists who can play the other contrapuntal section written for piano alone in the first movement. Why? Because Bernstein wrote the piece for himself.
Here is a clip of him playing the Ravel Piano Concerto, finale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjdAyy1xatA
Bernstein wrote his clarinet sonata as his first classical composition, Poulenc, practically the last piece he wrote. Both can be considered reasonably modern.
They ought to be accorded accuracy.
Post Edited (2008-06-17 13:22)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-06-17 12:42
"and selecting reeds:"
I swear that is Mike Myers (Meyers?) assisting her....
The more I watch Sabine the less her movements bother me.
Bob Draznik
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-17 13:18
Sorry sir. They indeed do not do a good job in either. Simply from an accuracy standpoint. From one of lyricism, forget it. Yes, they are fine players, but with SM it sounds best when she is fast, and much less so when lyric and adagio.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-06-17 14:35
I am always amazed at the criticism directed towards some of the most prominent people in fields of specialty like this. I am sure there are similar threads on science forums saying how Stephen Hawking has not the faintest clue about physics.
Like it or not, these people are famous in their field. Complaining about it won't make them any less famous or you any more.
Old Geezer wrote "She performed this familar staple from the printed score...bush league!?"
I would not mind having the career of a bush league. Anyone else?
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Author: thomas.b
Date: 2008-06-17 14:35
"Poulenc = A German playing French Music (misses the elegance and nuance for me)
Bernstein = A German playing American music (misses the playful quality and spunky aspects of this piece)"
hey... come on:
is someone here (American/French/Boehm) who dares to play Brahms? ;-)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-06-17 14:50
Golly gee, you professional clarinetists sure are anal-retentive and vindictive too! So much sniping. I'm glad I'm an amateur who can simply enjoy the playing of people who are far better musicians than I could ever be.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-06-17 15:47
It may interest (or not) you'all to know the Old Geezer thinks (aside from her repellant stage presence) Sabine M. is the leading (best?)
clarinetist around these days. She's best enjoyed on CDs; her videos are torture to us rarified types.
But perhaps my judgement is somewhat flawed; I used to think Emma Johnson was the cat's pajamas!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-06-17 16:40
Old Geezer Wrote:
"She performed this familar staple from the printed score...bush league!?"
Geez,
You have much to learn about music performance. It is highly uncommon to perform sonatas from memory when the pianist is using music. Sonatas are more like chamber music than a concerto with a piano doing it's best to hack out an orchestral score. If you play a sonata from memory then you show up the pianist who most of time is an equal voice. In a performance, it puts too much emphasis on one player and not both but the musical vocies are generally equal in these types of settings. Some pieces this is more true than others such as a Brahms Sonata compared to the Sain Seans for example but generally speaking, you don't perform sonatas from memory unless the pianist does also.
I often wonder if you are just "trolling" this board because many of your opinions about performers and the practice of performing are completely clueless.
Post Edited (2008-06-17 18:24)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-06-17 17:02
I attended several live concerts by Heiftz in his prime performing sonatas and he most certainly did not read from a printed score. Even today what international performer would perform sonatas reading from a printed score.
Try to be nice to "clueless" old people.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2008-06-17 17:39
Sabine Meyer perhaps? Michael Collins is another.
I think some of Ryan's post makes a good point (if in a somewhat unkind way) except that perhaps it should be referenced more specifically to woodwind (and brass) players. You'll rarely see a Brahms clarinet sonata done from memory these days (at least I haven't lately here in the UK), the notion that Ryan sites about chamber music is dead on - the Weber quintet isn't usually done from memory either, and its far more of a clarinet showpiece than the Brahms F minor. The same, as you say Old Geezer, can't so often be said of string players, or for that matter pianists.
Personally I have never asked a pianist to play a (duo) sonata from memory and so haven't played from memory myself, while I'm much more comfortable playing other recital pieces or concerti from memory then from music.
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2008-06-17 17:42
Mr. Friedland...I always enjoy the chance to agree to disagree.
For me, if I want to listen to an Adagio played to legato perfection then Andrew Marriner's recording of the Finzi concerto comes out (a Brit playing British of course, so it must be good <nudge>).
Post Edited (2008-06-17 17:44)
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-06-17 18:22
Sorry to all if my previous post had a rude edge to it. It's hard for me to extend a pleasent tone to a poster that is almost always negative and critical such as Old Geezer.
My apologies.
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2008-06-17 18:48
Ryan25 wrote to Old Geezer:
Geez,
You have much to learn about music performance. It is highly uncommon to perform sonatas from memory when the pianist is using music. Sonatas are more like chamber music than a concerto with a piano doing it's best to hack out an orchestral score. If you play a sonata with from memory then you show up the panist who most of time is an equal voice.
Ryan,
I was lucky enough to attend a performance of Anne-Sophie Mutter and Lambert Orkis playing the three Brahms’ Violin Sonatas as well as three of his Hungarian Dances and his Lullaby. Ms. Mutter played entirely from memory while Mr. Orkis played entirely from the scores.
As for “showing up the pianist”, you’ll have to ask Mr. Orkis if he feels shown up by Ms. Mutter, but I sincerely doubt he does.
Allan
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2008-06-17 18:54
Some of you have not understood my point in the post that rankled feathers (Brits, French, German, Yankees, et al).
When one is evaluating a player like SM, I always assume that technique is going to be there. All play with a sense of bravura. That is a given or they would not be at the top of the heap.
What I am often critical of is the nuanced things that make great playing stellar. This comes in tonal variety, nuanced phrasing, smooth legato, varied articulation.
Too often, what is held as 'the standard" can lack some of the finishing touches that make the highest ideal.
Regarding country of origin, I do think it is important in many interpretations. Music is a language with subtle inflections that correspond with national temperments and language. French is not German. Italian is not French.
Even though the world is flat and getting flatter, hopefully some nationalistic characters of musical style will remain, but I doubt seriously it will be long before most international orchestras will sound the same (including Berlin and Vienna).
And that will be a sad day.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-17 19:28
That sir, is an interesting post and a point well taken. We all listen to these postings with the ears which we bring. Mine are older and have many years of listening, teaching, and performing these works, and so that is how I listen. Each is entitiled to listen, and as you say, the results will differ.
God bless us, each and every one.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-06-17 19:48
Allan,
I think comparing violin soloists to clarinet soloists is sort of like comparing apples to oranges. It's two very different things I think. Violin recitals were being performed before the clarinet was even an established instrument honestly. There seems to be a tradition with regards to violin soloists that at least in my experience has not translated over to the clarinet.
I've seen many, many clarinet recitals in my time by both professional and amature and I have never seen a performer play from memory in a sonata. Only in concert pieces and concertos. Maybe clarinetists should play from memory all staples of the repitoire but my point for this disscussion was simply that calling SM bush league because she perfromed with music was an absurd comment to make.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-06-17 21:37
Dileep Gangolli wrote:
> Regarding country of origin, I do think it is important in many interpretations.
> Music is a language with subtle inflections that correspond with national
> temperments and language. French is not German. Italian is not French.
I agree--there are national styles and performance practices, and it's important to take those things into account. The point I was trying to make was that national stylistic preferences are only part of the picture. Sorry if my reply seemed a bit blunt.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-06-17 22:04
Ryan 25 wrote:
> I think comparing violin soloists to clarinet soloists is sort of like comparing
> apples to oranges. It's two very different things I think. Violin recitals were
> being performed before the clarinet was even an established instrument
> honestly. There seems to be a tradition with regards to violin soloists that at
> least in my experience has not translated over to the clarinet.
I think there is something to this. My daughter takes violin, and her teacher has her memorize every piece. I have been learning violin along with her, and we practice together. In my (very limited) experience with the violin, I have found that the mechanics of the instrument (such as lifting your arm up to play the low strings) and the fact that it is an instrument of continuous pitch make reading printed music somewhat of a distraction/annoyance. It is also more difficult to turn pages when you are holding a violin and a bow (which means you never have an empty hand).
In short, it seems that memorization actually tends to make life much easier on a violin--much like on piano. Even in the absence of a prevailing tradition, I would actually prefer to play from memory if I were on a violin. That may have at least something to do with the apparent differences in performance practice between winds and strings.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-06-17 23:54
Recently M. Zukovsky of the LAPhil performed the Mozart Concerto reading from the printed score. She used her glasses and turned the pages etc. She opened the program before a crowded house, the only other work being Bruckner's Sixth. I think her idea was to create a chamber music atmosphere: the conductor went with it and it was beautifully done to the approval of one and all.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: FDF
Date: 2008-06-18 01:12
Actually, what disturbs me the most about this thread is the title with the word "does", a word that indicates a bias on the part of the poster, who is more disturbed by expressions of passion than with the quality of sound. I find it narrow minded, at best. Thus, diluting the posters opinion of Sabine Meyer's magnificent playing of Poulenc's composition.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-06-18 03:32
I think we all need to take a step back and remember what's most important about this thread; Old Geezer refering to Sabine Meyer as "bush league." I mean, come on, if that doesn't make you laugh I don't know what will.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-06-18 13:55
Old Geezer posted that her platform mannerisms were "bush league" not her playing. Her dependance on a printed score can be overlooked, but not her stage antics.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-18 13:58
I am with you, sir. Harold Wright knew and played with the most beautiful legato in the business, always. Anything and everything was always beautiful, accurate and for many of us, he was perfect.
Sherman Friedland
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