 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetguy55
Date: 2008-06-09 14:02
My clarinet teacher is telling me that I squeeze my stomach muscles when I play. I am trying very hard not to do it, but I am having a hard time. Does anyone have advice?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-09 14:26
Hello,
There are wind musicians out there who might tell you to squeeze to "support" the air stream. I don't believe that squeezing the six pack is the best method to accomplish this.
Your teacher might be objecting to this if the squeezing is interrupting deep breathing, or if they would prefer you to support in another manner. Have you asked them why they want you to stop?
You should read this article:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=714&t=714
Support is fundamental to being able to control the instrument at all dynamics. It is a topic that is worth a great deal of attention.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-06-09 14:27)
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2008-06-09 15:40
You don't want to be squeezing your stomach when you breathe in, because you want room for all the air you can fit. When playing, gradually squeezing your stomach is what is commonly called support. Sort of like squeezing a toothpaste tube to keep the toothpaste coming.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-09 16:42
John O'Janpa wrote:
>> When playing, gradually squeezing your stomach is what is commonly called support. Sort of like squeezing a toothpaste tube to keep the toothpaste coming.>>
No, it isn't -- and it would be useful to you to understand why.
I won't try to explain here, because I wrote most of the link that James posted: you can read it there.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-09 22:15
clarinetguy55 wrote:
>> He is telling me that when I squeeze, i am not releasing a lot of air.>>
Well, it doesn't matter very much what he is telling you, if you don't understand the situation.
Read the reference, and come back with questions.
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-06-10 00:29
Here's a short and simple answer for you. You have to learn to relax when you breathe in and exhale out. Do not use tension. Try this exercise. Lie down on a flat surface and just relax, think of something pleasant, like a good reed. Now, without thinking too much, begin to take long slow breaths. Do not tense your stomach muscles, just relax. The only reason your stomach should be rising and lowering is because air intake is making it rise and letting it out is making it go down. Once you can do that in a relaxed state, sit up and try to imitate the feeling. Do this several times a day for a few minutes, after a while you should be able to apply it to your playing. A few days, a few weeks, that's up to you. Just stay relaxed. Don't make your stomach rise by tightening your stomach muscles. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457, (listen to a little Mozart)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-10 12:31
Clarinetguy55,
You say you understand the situation. Perhaps you could explain to us why your teacher has been giving you the advice that they have been giving?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarinetguy55
Date: 2008-06-10 22:27
When I said what my teacher told me to, I was trying to say that it was about letting out air, not supporting becauase some people were wondering if it was support or air.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-11 01:10
"I was trying to say that [squeezing stomach muscles] was about letting out air, not supporting..."
OK...your answer doesn't seem to make sense to me. Support (whether by squeezing the stomach with abdominals or by other methods) is applying pressure to the air that leaves your body (hopefully into the clarinet).
So squeezing the stomach muscles is one method of support. And your teacher doesn't want you to do it?
You haven't yet explained WHY your teacher says not to squeeze the muscles?
I think that you should ask your teacher to fully explain what they mean and for you to explain to them what you do or don't understand about it.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarinetguy55
Date: 2008-06-11 04:33
Tobin wrote:
> You haven't yet explained WHY your teacher says not to squeeze
> the muscles?
My teacher does not want me to squeeze my stomach muscles because he says that when my stomach is squeezed, there is not enough air that is being released and the notes are not as clear.
Post Edited (2008-06-11 05:17)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-11 13:57
"...there is not enough air that is being released and the notes are not as clear."
That is the exact opposite effect of what squeezing your stomach would do.
Although it is not the most effective way of providing support...if you are squeezing your stomach while you release the air your air will last longer and be more effective than if you did not.
If there is something that you don't fully understand then it is preventing you from explaining yourself properly. The other possibility is that you ARE reporting everything exactly like it happens...and now I have a question about what your teacher thinks.
Your ISP is in Chicago...couldn't you take a one lesson with someone else and attempt to determine the problem?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-06-11 14:48
From my perspective, the stomach remains OUT as the air is released. However, you do engage the abdominals and intercostals (between ribs) in such a way that your mid section becomes firm to the touch as opposed to flabby. I liken the feeling to an attempt to relieve constipation.....if you get my drift.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-11 19:24
clarinetguy55 wrote:
>> Tobin wrote:
>>> You haven't yet explained WHY your teacher says not to squeeze the muscles?>>>
>> My teacher does not want me to squeeze my stomach muscles because he says that when my stomach is squeezed, there is not enough air that is being released and the notes are not as clear.>>
It sounds as though there is a lot of confusion around all of this.
I'd like to clear up just one part of it, and see where it gets us in the discussion.
So, how do we blow, when we are blowing from LOW DOWN (the almost universally recommended method)?
The answer is, we flex both our abdominal muscles and our back muscles simultaneously and equally.
Think of another part of our body for a moment.
If we flex our biceps and triceps simultaneously and equally (the biceps bend our arm, the triceps straighten it) there is no effect upon the bending of our arm. The bending effect of the biceps is counteracted by the straightening effect of the triceps.
The same is true of the abdominal and back muscles. Simultaneous and equal flexing of those muscles have no effect on the bending of the body at the waist. If we are standing erect, we remain standing erect. If we are sitting, we remain sitting.
However, in this case, there IS an effect upon the soft tissue that lies between abdominal and back muscles. A pressure is exerted on that gut material, and it pushes up on the division between gut and thorax -- namely the diaphragm.
So, that's how we blow.
It's no use going on to talk about 'support' unless this fundamental system is understood. Abdominal flexion -- in conjunction with back muscle flexion -- is a necessary component of blowing.
Tony
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Author: allencole
Date: 2008-06-11 20:37
I was always taught to push outward, as if to resist a punch to the stomach or to try and pop off a belt, and I think that this is the way to go.
Here's how I see it, and usually explain it:
One of the biggest problems that intermediate players have are the differences in resistance that they encounter between various notes of the horn. Explosive high notes and squeaky downward jumps really drive this point home. If not dealt with, it can lead to some of the ridiculous breathing/blowing/articulating habits that we all see way too frequently.
But pushing against your diaphragm creates an internal resistance that allows you to control your airflow into low-resistance notes, and force airflow into high-resistance notes. Your internal blowing resistance, in other words, becomes greater that the horn's peak resistance and all areas of the horn begin looking the same to your body. Then you make all the crazy jumps as if you had hooked the horn up to an air compressor. Come to think of it, you actually ARE an air compressor in this circumstance.
Also, a possible way to induce the proper techique: Play a long tone, and keep it going until there is absolutely no air left. Feel what your body instinctively does to put pressure behind that last little gust before you're totally spent. (hint - it doesn't feel like squeezing)
Paul's reference to relieveing constipation hits the nail on the head. I've used that analogy in the past, and have seen others do the same. In every case, the students knew exactly what to do. Tony's post should make it clear to all why this actually works.
Allen Cole
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-11 21:32
I enjoy reading everyone's thoughtful perspectives and insights into what is a fundamental technique.
The only reason I don't chime in equally is because I think a discussion of support is a bit premature for the initiator of the thread. There is (apparently) a fundamental communication/comprehension problem between the student and the teacher.
(Or the teacher has a fundamental problem)
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-11 21:38
James wrote:
>> ...I think a discussion of support is a bit premature for the initiator of the thread. There is (apparently) a fundamental communication/comprehension problem between the student and the teacher.
(Or the teacher has a fundamental problem)>>
Yes, well said.
Tony
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Author: clarinetguy55
Date: 2008-06-11 22:30
This has nothing to do with support. It has to do with how much air is released at once. If I squeeze my stomach, less air is being released. If i don't, more air is being released.
Post Edited (2008-06-11 22:32)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-11 23:14
Well it seems to me that you shouldn't squeeze. More air is always good. You should really pay heed to Tony and if you can read his contribution in the Cambridge Companion about the mechanics of breathing.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-06-12 11:57
That "Cambridge Companion" is a good book, and the articles in it are helpful for another reason: Because the authors have done an unusually good job of explaining their terminology in context, and because a lot of clarinet players read the "Cambridge Companion," the book provides a useful vocabulary for teachers, students and chat site participants. Sharing a common vocabulary can't prevent all miscommunications, but can help clarify situations such as the one that's apparently developed between the student who started this thread, his teacher who's not making himself understood and those of us who've been trying to figure out specifically what this teacher observed, what he wants the student to do, whether or not the student should do it and, if so, how.
Although I have no wisdom to offer about clarinet technique (I'm an amateur and learning from this thread myself), I do have a suggestion about communicating. Whenever the teacher says something that's not clear to you, don't assume that's your fault or the teacher's fault. It doesn't mean he's giving a bad explanation or you're not paying attention. It just means you both need to find the common language, and the best time to do it is now. Don't go away from the lesson with the confusion hanging there in the air. Say something like, "I'm not sure I understand. Could you show me what you mean?"
Often the most helpful common language is the non-verbal one. Get the teacher to give you a demonstration of what he thinks you're doing and what he wants you to do instead. A clear demonstration will probably look exaggerated. Today, teachers are taught never to demean their students, and sometimes that desire to preserve a student's self-esteem can lead teachers to avoid exaggerating for fear of making students think they look or sound ridiculous. You may have to encourage him to exaggerate in order to get him to make himself clear.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-06-12 14:12
Lelia
You are absoulutely right. I always ask the student when i'm talking about something if they have understood it or not so that we can move on if they have or continue trying to sort out the problem, if any. Everything you have said is very important.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-12 14:47
Clarinetguy55:
Perhaps then you could elaborate on the feeling or sensation that you experience that allows you to squeeze so tightly that the release of air is slowed?
James
PS...please do not take the presumption of several of the posters (myself included) that you do not understand as a personal attack. Instead you should realize that what you are describing is completely opposite our experiences. For example: "I don't understand why when I step on the gas pedal my car slows to a halt?".
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-12 15:38
James wrote:
>> PS...please do not take the presumption of several of the posters (myself included) that you do not understand as a personal attack.>>
Well, that would have been true of me too -- though I'd begun to wonder -- until your last post:
>> This is not a miscommunication. I understand what my teacher is talking about.>>
So now, I notice that I have been spending inordinate amounts of time posting carefully crafted posts; whilst you typically respond with enigmatic oneliners.
GET LOST.
I don't CARE whether or not you ever get to play the clarinet any better.
First, I doubt that you make any contribution with your playing now; and second, I doubt that whatever anyone says, you will EVER make a contribution.
As far as I can see, you're what's called a waste of space.
Tony
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Author: clarinetguy55
Date: 2008-06-12 22:02
Tony Pay wrote:
> James wrote:
>
> >> PS...please do not take the presumption of several of the
> posters (myself included) that you do not understand as a
> personal attack.>>
>
> Well, that would have been true of me too -- though I'd begun
> to wonder -- until your last post:
>
> >> This is not a miscommunication. I understand what my teacher
> is talking about.>>
>
> So now, I notice that I have been spending inordinate amounts
> of time posting carefully crafted posts; whilst you typically
> respond with enigmatic oneliners.
>
> GET LOST.
>
> I don't CARE whether or not you ever get to play the clarinet
> any better.
>
> First, I doubt that you make any contribution with your playing
> now; and second, I doubt that whatever anyone says, you will
> EVER make a contribution.
>
> As far as I can see, you're what's called a waste of space.
>
> Tony
Just because I know what my teacher is talking about doesn't mean that I am having a hard time.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-06-12 22:03
Clarinetguy I'm not giving up on you yet. It seems that Ed Palanker was dealing with the tension issue. Certainly if one is too tense it isn't good. How does your teacher know you are squeezing your stomach muscles? Is it visually? Let me know and then I'll give you some suggestions.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: clarinetguy55
Date: 2008-06-12 22:05
My teacher knows that I am squeezing my stomach muscles by the sound that is coming out of my clarinet, and I have gotten better at not squeezing.
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Author: clarinetguy55
Date: 2008-06-12 22:07
Tony, your posts have helped me with this problem. I am not trying to be enigmatic with my posts. I am sorry if you think that you wasted time, but I don't think that you did because every single post on this thread has helped me get rid of the problem. This whole thing didn't have to do with a misunderstanding between me and my teacher. I understood what he said. I just wanted more advice because I was having a hard time getting rid of the problem.
Post Edited (2008-06-13 00:15)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-06-12 22:34
Here's my advice. Practice low notes on the clarinet. Play low G, low F and low E. Make these sounds full and loud while maintaining a good embouchure. While playing loud it is important to relax the body. Focus on various things. Try playing loud and relaxing the arms. ...then focus on the shoulders...let them drop....As you play imagine the tone going from the clarinet to a distant wall etc. Imagine the airflow travelling...keep the flow constant and don't tense up. The usual tendency is for us to relax when we play softly and tense up when we play loud. We tend to grip the clarinet more for loud playing so focus on relaxed fingers while playing loud. You might try starting softly and then crescendo...focusing on relaxation. The next step would be to add the register key to these low notes. Practice them in pairs....low g and then add the register key to get d. What you want is a full low note going to a full upper note. Practice slowly ...half note on low G ...slur to D...lots of air. Strive for a D that is open and resonant. Repeat this several times. Do the same with low F to upper C and lowest E to B in the staff. This would be a good way warm up exercise for you. All the best.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-06-13 10:46
clarinetguy55 wrote:
>> Tony, your posts have helped me with this problem. I am not trying to be enigmatic with my posts. I am sorry if you think that you wasted time, but I don't think that you did because every single post on this thread has helped me get rid of the problem. This whole thing didn't have to do with a misunderstanding between me and my teacher. I understood what he said. I just wanted more advice because I was having a hard time getting rid of the problem.>>
OK, I accept that. So now, as I understand it, YOU didn't have a particular experience of anything being wrong, but your teacher did:
>> My teacher knows that I am squeezing my stomach muscles by the sound that is coming out of my clarinet...>>
...and the last bit, namely:
>> ...and I have gotten better at not squeezing.>>
...means that even though you don't experience any improvement in your sound, he does.
Just to focus the matter -- and believe me, it's important for us to know these things -- let me ask you some questions directly:
Did YOU think that there was something wrong with your sound, independently of any conversation about your stomach muscles? (If so, what was it that was wrong?)
Do YOU think your sound is now improved?
Do you know that you have 'gotten better at not squeezing' by what your stomach muscles feel like, or by what your teacher tells you?
Tony
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-13 15:34
clarinetguy55,
The most important thing that I teach my students is how to teach themselves. To this end self-evaluative technique is key and ultimately the root of what I explain to them.
Tony's questions are aiming at the heart of this idea, and can aid you a great deal towards your goal.
Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarinetguy55
Date: 2008-06-13 22:57
I thought that there was something wrong with my sound because it wasn't coming out as clear. Yes, I now think my sound is much improved. I have gotten better by what my stomach feels like because I have tried not to squeeze and it feels different.
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