 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-05 00:39
I am considering sending my clarinet off to have the upper joint pads replaced with cork pads. i am planning on sending it to a very reputable repairman though. Any suggestions? Mabey Chadash?
What is your opinion on cork pads?
My main reason for wanting them is because condesation ruins the standard fish skin pads. My R13 isn't a year old and it's missing the skin on one pad, and several others are ready to fall off(the skin, not the pad).
I swab my clarinet every 20 minutes or so during practice and always before I put it away.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2008-06-05 00:49
Cork pads are great if you don't mind them being a bit noisier up close than skin pads; obviously their resistance to being saturated by water is a huge plus.
If you haven't ever played an instrument overhauled by the Brannens, I'd suggest you give them a try. I'll admit I was a bit of a skeptic the first time I sent off my R-13's to them. I was floored when they came back, and outplayed anything I'd ever held in my hands. Now one of my former students has that set of R-13's, and I just had a pair of Yamaha CSG's worked on last month...the intonation of the horns is just stellar.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-06-05 00:58
No slight against Guy Chadash, but the world of instrument repair does not begin and end with him (or the Brannens).
If it's only cork pads you need, and not a complete voicing/tuning/set-up and regulation, there are literally hundreds of qualified and VERY competent techs who can do the job at a fraction of the cost.
Some, right even in your own backyard...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-06-05 01:01
Cork pads will outlast the other types (provided you look after them well), and can be far more airtight provided they're seated well and the tonehole bedplace is perfect (either free from imperfections to begin with or by having the imperfections filled or the bedplace levelled if not).
You will still have the usual condensation trouble (water in toneholes), but the pads will last longer. Look after them as you would do with skin or leather pads by blotting them after use if they get wet, and they will last for years.
I give them both thumbs up for their longevity, though they are noisier in operation when compared to skin or leather pads, but that's something you'll learn to live with (and may change your technique slightly so as not to bang your fingers down hard).
If having the ring key pads done in cork (especially the RH rings), you may need the rings to be only slightly higher than usual to be sure the ring key pad closes with your fingers (especially if you play with the extreme tips or have narrow fingers) - if the rings are too low, your fingers can be closed on the chimneys but the pad could be slightly open.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-06-05 01:36
I've used cork pads on the upper joints of my instruments for years and they really do last a lot longer. However, as mentioned above, they make a bit more noise. I've used the Brannens, Tom Ridenour and John Butler for pads and they're all three great. John is definitely a better price. Tom uses a synthetic cork pad rather than the standard old ones and they're really nice. I had my Leblanc Symphonie VII done with them and it made a big difference in how the instrument played. Big improvement.
The Brannens did several R-13s for me and also a Festival. Great job. Perfect.
Contact these people and get prices. If I recall John is in Sugarland, TX and happens to be a sponsor of this board and a genuinely nice guy. He did a repad on a Buffet E-13 I bought for a student and did a wonderful job at a great price.
So, as GBK says, there are many out there who do this kind of work. Shop around.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-05 02:13
GBK
Now that you mention it, a complete voicing, and tuning wouldn't hurt. I feel like the instrument isn't playing to its full potential, mabey it's me, but in the year that I've owned it, I've never taken it to anyone for any adjustments. It's basically factory in terms of adjustments.
Does anyone know about how much that generally costs?
I know its not cheap, but from what I can tell and what I've read before its worth the cost.
What do you guys mean when you say they are noisier? Are you able to hear more air pass by them when they are open?
What difference is there in synthetic cork pads? Are we talking about the material used on newer Buffet pro models in areas such as the bridge wheer cork is usually placed?
Brenda...
Thanks for mentioning John. I live in Texas, so that's convinient. I live in San Antonio and for a city of 1.4 million, I can't seem to find any repair tech that is very knowledgeable.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2008-06-05 03:52
How are pads done in other countries? Are cork pads popular in Germany for instance?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-06-05 04:18
It’s probably just me but I would never send my clarinet out for a repair unless there is no one capable of doing the work within driving distance. The reason is that I want to be there when the job is done so I can play it and see if I’m satisfied with the final job. I like to be able to say, can you make this a bit higher, or a bit lower, or tighter or easier etc. I’ve seen to many mail jobs done well but not exactly to the taste or feel of the player and then you have to send it back with instructions to what you want or live with it. If it’s just cork pads, which I love, the noise doesn’t bother me a bit, I don’t even notice it, any good repairman can put them in, as long as they use quality cork. My suggestion is to find someone in driving distance; you can mail it to them but pick it up in person, try it out and be critical before you drive home. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
PS. if you go with cork pads in the up joint the 1/1 sould be a regular pad as the first pad in the lower joint so when using the 1/1 it has the same feel.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-06-05 14:51)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-06-05 04:22
"What do you guys mean when you say they are noisier? Are you able to hear more air pass by them when they are open?"
No, they are noisier when they close and hit the tone hole.
You are asking about synthetic cork pads but then give an example of synthetic key cork. I have no idea if the same synthetic key cork material is used for pads too, but I haven't seen pads from this material. The only sythetic pad I have seen on Buffet clarinets is a white Valentino pad used on the register key (on E11) and never liked it because it was very sticky. The other types of synthetic pads I have experience with are not used for key cork or on Buffet clarinets.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2008-06-05 04:52
Ryder,
Since you live in San Antone, it might be easier for you to phone John and then drive down there.
You mention tuning and voicing. Voicing is when the pad heights are adjusted to maximize the sound for that given note and possibly it's intonation.
Tuning?........unless you are standing next to the tech as he works on your clarinet, tuning is not an option. Tuning encompases YOU, and your mp/reed/ligature combo, embouchure, etc.
Tuning inolves work on the tone holes: undercutting and tone hole chimmney work, raising or lowering the pitch. A clarinet can be ruined lickety split if this is not done properly AND with you playing it as it's worked on. Tuning is very time consuming and costly.
If a tech is willing to do tuning work AND you trust them, an alternative is telling the tech which notes are affected and how many cents you want each raised/lowered (doing so will affect the note's 12th and possibly others).
I know John Butler and the Brannens will do voicing but not tuning work. I also know many other high end techs will not do tuning work.
Cork pads on the UJ?...yes, they last longer and are noiser (one hard surface (cork) closing against another hard surface (wood). Tradeoffs.
Air emitted from a tone hole disperses differently be it against a cork or bladder pad.
If cork pads are used, be sure to have them beveled so the air is dispersed more quickly and evenly. One not necessarily need the entire UJ 'corked' but rather just the register and 'water' keys.
I've had numerous clarinets done by John Butler and, his work is first rate and reasonable. He has a web site you can look at and get an idea of his rates. A call to him is always welcomed and I echo Brenda's comment.
I had one clarinet done by the Brannens. It was done before I bought the instrument. The seller did not know it was Brannenized just prior to it's sale and it was hardly played. It's a 1998 Vintage model Bb. How good is it: it's utterly fantastic. So much so that at a clarfest it was borrowed and used in Master Classes and, Francois Kloc insisted I sell it to him or trade any clarinet on the table. Point?.......It was a good clarinet to start with. As he stated to Mark Nuccio, this should not have left the factory for sale. A first rate overhaul can help make a good clarinet better but it will not make a poor clarinet, good. I also have a 2006 Vintage A that is = to, if not better than that Bb. A set. This , too, will be made better when the factory 'workmanship' is corrected.
Replacing pads?....Carmine Campione related that when he would go to Moening's shop for replacement of a pad or two, he would ask Hans to change yet another. The pad in question was brownish and hard. Yet, Hans would not change it. I was informed the reasoning was the pad sealed well and he could not make a new pad seal any better. In other words, if its not broken, don't fix it.
A repad is one thing, an overhaul is much, much more. (pads, resurfacing tone holes, sealing wood, swedging keys, adjust spring tension and key heights, tenon corks, etc).
I suggest you contact some techs and ask what they offer as part of a repad or overhaul. There is also a choice of pads: premium bladder, gortex, staubinger, leather, etc.
You makes your choice and pays your $$$$.
As Brenda shared, TR used synthetic cork here and there and also for tenons. Others may use artifical cork (like the Buffet factory). Depending on the key mechanism, felt is also an option for quietness.
Hope this helps.
If you are more confused now than before, that's good because its a sign that you are learning (:o)
regards
dennis
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-06-05 07:36
I suggest you think about Valentino pads. They are a kind of synthic foam material. They hold a seal for years and they are very quiet, unlike cork.
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Author: srattle
Date: 2008-06-05 08:53
I just had my clarinet crack because of cork pads. They really don't take any of the water, and when I took my clarinet in to repair it, we looked inside, and all the tone holes with cork pads were totally wet, where as the rest were bone dry (even after a thorough cleaning)
They do sound really good, and last a long time, but I am now quite wary of cork pads
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-06-05 11:52
Which keys did you have cork pads fitted in? Was it the side keys?
These keys will collect water no matter what kind of pad are used due to the location of the toneholes, though porous pads (like some low quality leather pads) will absorb the water which won't do the pads any good and will need replacing before long, but cork pads will last better in such places where water collects more readily.
You just have to be sure you get rid of excess water from toneholes either while playing (if you have the chance) or before putting the clarinet away afterwards. A good shake of the top joint, as well as blowing the water out of the offnding toneholes (stop the lower end of the joint, cover the fingerholes and blow down opening up each key in turn to blow the water out and blot the excess with a piece of paper towel) will rid the toneholes of collected condensation.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-06-05 12:30
Cork pads are not noisier when they are carefully and symetrically beveled. This takes care and of course, time. I happen to have white leather in the lower joint and the aforementioned cork in the upper and I don't have problems. This on a Selmer 10S clarinet, a favorite of mine. I also like the synthetic pads,that look like cork but are not actually cork. Tom R. uses synthetic pads in this clarinets, of which I have a set, but interestingly enough, on my Bb, he uses a regular double-skinned pad under the second ring, left hand. On my A they are all synthetic and very good.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-05 12:59
I believe that the bis key should be the exception to the upper cork methodology. Or if you do cork it you should cork the corresponding key in the lower joint: so that both tone holes activated by the RH rings through the bridge key be consistent.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-06-05 13:10
>>What do you guys mean when you say they are noisier? Are you able to hear more air pass by them when they are open?
>>
The pad hitting the tone hole makes a sound similar to tapping the eraser end of a pencil on a wooden table. It's not a very loud noise, but it drives me nuts, so much so that I've replaced the cork register key pads on clarinets I've bought used. I think what I couldn't get used to must be that the register key with a cork pad sounds so different from all the other keys with skin pads, because the much louder noise from saxophone keys (including a substantal WHOP! on bass sax) doesn't bug me. Also, I'm an old hag, and I grew up playing clarinets with skin or leather pads, so I'm used to clarinet keys sounding nearly silent; whereas I started playing saxophones when I was already pretty close to hagdom and therefore got used to noisy keys on sax from the start. But do try out a clarinet with cork pads before you get yours re-padded, because it's an expensive change to reverse if you react to that sound as I do.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-06-05 14:19
I also live in Texas. Tom Ridenour is in Dallas. You can go to his website (www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com) and email him about the synthetic. He says they last longer and are quieter. The synthetic corks look like cork but aren't. Same color.
As to the noise. Corks just make a slight pop when they close. Very slight. But the synthetics don't. If you 're playing into a mic (as I do sometimes) it might make a difference to you. Honestly, I don't notice it at all after a while.
A full artist level overhaul will probably run you around $500.00 with the Brannens, however I'd check with them first. They are excellent at the voicing, etc.
Tom charged me just under that for the Symphonie VII.
I just had my Buffet B-12 (my outdoor instrument) repadded with Valentinos and they are really nice. Perfectly quiet and seal well. That's also an option.
Post Edited (2008-06-05 14:22)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-06-05 14:54
Don't use the brown Valentino pads (the ones that look like cork), they're really porous.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2008-06-05 15:01
I guess, IMHO it depends on what kind of sound you are looking for. I tend to find instruments padded in cork sound brighter, eg. piccolo and clarinet.
The GoTex pads Buffet uses with its Prestige line instruments may be a worthy option in terms of longevity.
My clarinets are padded in leather with white shellac as adhesive, and maybe that might be something worth considering.
Chan
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-06-05 15:09
Now that you all mention it, I just remebered that the register key on my R13 is synthetic cork. mabey just replacing the "water keys" with cork would be a better Idea. I'd say those keys would be the G#,A, and 1st two side trill keys. any more you guys think should be replaced? Those are my problem keys.
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2008-06-05 15:12
Consider the Buffet Tosca configuration. I can't remember how they are padded, I haven't done much Toscas. Maybe Chris P might know.
Chan
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Author: hartt
Date: 2008-06-05 16:03
Tosca, Vintage, Festival and Prestiges............Gortex and cork.
Ryder............LH c#/g# and bis key optional
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2008-06-05 16:22
I also recomend John Butler from first hand experience. I am sure that Tom Ridenour would also do a great job.
...Jim
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-06-05 16:24
Lots of good points here.
A couple of things to add.
Guy Chadash is superb and can do amazing technical things if you were to need any acoustical things addressed or keywork modified.
I like the synthetic pads a lot. I know that some don't, but I find that they are quiet, seal great and last a long time. One advantage over cork is that they are a bit more forgiving. There is no leeway with cork. Either it seals or it doesn't. The synthetics are a bit softer, so there is a bit more give.
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Author: KristinVanHorn
Date: 2008-06-05 16:38
Ed wrote:
> Lots of good points here.
>
> A couple of things to add.
>
> Guy Chadash is superb and can do amazing technical things if
> you were to need any acoustical things addressed or keywork
> modified.
>
> I like the synthetic pads a lot. I know that some don't, but I
> find that they are quiet, seal great and last a long time. One
> advantage over cork is that they are a bit more forgiving.
> There is no leeway with cork. Either it seals or it doesn't.
> The synthetics are a bit softer, so there is a bit more give.
If the cork pads seal good upon installation are they more prone to loose their seal with time and use than regular pads? How well do they maintain a seal since they are not forgiving?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-05 17:06
...It has been noted several times in this thread that cork pads last longer than regular pads in general.
When properly installed they seal extremely well...another reason why they're used so frequently.
Remembering a thread vaguely close to this one: Isn't another advantage to cork pads the small diameter of the pad? Thus allowing the note to speak properly without the key having to open as far?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: KristinVanHorn
Date: 2008-06-05 20:37
Tobin wrote:
> ...It has been noted several times in this thread that cork
> pads last longer than regular pads in general.
>
> When properly installed they seal extremely well...another
> reason why they're used so frequently.
>
> Remembering a thread vaguely close to this one: Isn't another
> advantage to cork pads the small diameter of the pad? Thus
> allowing the note to speak properly without the key having to
> open as far?
>
> James
>
I guess another question would be how much do cork pads cost to install?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-05 20:53
Kristin, Brenda's comments from above are accurate:
"A full artist level overhaul will probably run you around $500.00 with the Brannens, however I'd check with them first. They are excellent at the voicing, etc."
But GBK is also correct...you needn't necessarily send it to someone out of town. You should attempt to find the best repair tech in your area (within 100 miles)...to do that you could contact the local symphony or university program and find out who they use.
If you ONLY want to cork the upper joint that's going to depend on the technician. (Perhaps some of you BBoard Tech's could chime in??). The advantage of having an overhaul with all the "bells and whistles" done is that the Tech is already taking your horn completely apart...and it should play better than when you bought it new (which in your case was a couple of weeks ago).
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-06-05 21:59
I've had cork pads last me ten years and I play my clarinets often. The secret is to have them installed by an expert tech that uses high quality cork. I rearely have ever had to have a cork pad replaced and I don't hear them. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 (listen to some Mozart)
I have cork pads, I bet you don't hear any pad noise, it's a live recording.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-06-08 23:29)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-06-05 22:46
Firebird: "Consider the Buffet Tosca configuration. I can't remember how they are padded, I haven't done much Toscas. Maybe Chris P might know."
The Toscas have cork pads on the top joint side F# and Eb/Bb keys, the C#/G# key as well as the cross Eb/Bb 'sliver' key and speaker key. Possibly some more (maybe the throat G# key), but they're installed in the keys most likely to get waterlogged toneholes. I'll have a closer look next time I see one.
But partially cork padding like this is also an option (and one which I usually do when overhauling a clarinet for Howarth unless it's requested that I use all leather or all skin pads). That's only cork padding the keys most likely to suffer with condensation. The rest of the pads are white, either white leather or GoreTex, though I think they may possibly be white leather.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-06-06 00:23
>If the cork pads seal good upon installation are they more prone to loose their >seal with time and use than regular pads? How well do they maintain a seal >since they are not forgiving?
I don't believe that they lose their seal at all. What I mean in saying that they are not forgiving is that if the key is out of alignment at all, due to the hardness of cork, it does not have the ability to flex and make up for the slight change. Regular pads or synthetics with their softer nature have a little more "give" As with any piece of equipment, or whatever, there is always some plus and some minus. I do like cork, but also like the synthetic for many reasons. I think it is a good option and have seen them last forever.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2008-06-06 01:30
I own approx. 15 overhauled clarinets (both cork and leather pads), most overhauled by either John Butler (Sugarland, TX) or Vytas Krass (South River, NJ). Both are excellent.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-06-06 02:14
The last time I had my clarinet repadded, and the last time my daughter's R13 was overhauled, we went the cork route on the upper joints. I think it ran about $40-60 more than skin pads. It was worth the extra money.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2008-06-07 06:16
I haven't read a single post of this thread because I know it's a huge argument about what's good and bad about them. As there are tons of sources for figuring that out yourself, I'll just give my opinion, ' Yes or No '.
"Yes."
ca
Edit- I went back and browsed the post - it wasn't as argumentative as I thought it would be, however, there's nothing more I could add other than that I don't think they make enough noise for me to hardly notice. Cork is good, it's preference over quality in some cases. Informative thread if you're really wanting to get deep into the whole pad thing.
Post Edited (2008-06-07 06:19)
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