 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cj228
Date: 2008-05-06 14:10
I noticed some of the restored old buffet clarinet listed on e-bay still have the buffet logo imprint intact. I was wondering if the logo was "restored". Is this part of the overhaul job?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-06 14:18
If the logo has been stamped deeply enough (as it is on older Buffets) then it's easy to restore as the gold will stand a better chance of taking to the logo.
On current Buffets, the logos are stamped fairly lightly in comparison, so restoring the logo isn't anywhere nearly as successful.
It's a purely cosmetic thing, but does add a touch of class if done as part of a full overhaul.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skennedy
Date: 2008-05-06 20:28
I know from first hand experience as do many others, that Vytas Krass does an excellent job of restoring logos. ----no crayons!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-05-06 22:10
>"On current Buffets, the logos are stamped fairly lightly in comparison, so restoring the logo isn't anywhere nearly as successful".<
Chris,
I restored many Buffet logos where about half of the logo was completely worn off. No visible letters whatsoever and indeed I do not use Mrs. Birdie ingenious crayon method.
I do the logo restoration as part of my "Artist Overhaul" only. It takes a lot of time and patience. No "easy button" here. LOL
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-06 22:49
Where the logo is feint, a steady hand, a good eye (or magnifying glass) and a very sharp scriber (and obviously plenty of time and patience) is needed to re-engrave it, then add the gold paste (I don't use crayons either).
But getting the gold on large, flat, even and shallow areas, such as the more recent (and garish) Leblanc logos is hard to achieve with paste or crayon as they were initially applied (on a machine) with adhesive-backed foil with a heated roller which activates the adhesive on the foil roll.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2008-05-07 16:52
Where can a non-tech person get the gold paste?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-07 19:46
I use Liberon gilt paste to restore logos with, not sure who supplies it in the US, though there's bound to be somewhere if you search.
Here's a list of colours (or shades) from a UK supplier:
http://www.tryrelics.co.uk/catalogue/K/06
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2008-05-09 01:03
Chris, do you have a preferred color for different clarinets? Is this a wipe-on technique, or would a fine application tool be more appropriate?
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-05-09 02:48
if you look at vyta's work; he does restoration very well.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-09 09:29
I use an old reed that's been split down the centre and the tip cut square (and thick) to apply the paste into the logo, then the excess on the surface can be 'squeegied' so you can see what it's going to look like.
Then set it aside for around an hour or more for the paste to go off and buff it with a cotton rag. Any gold that has got into surface scratches and vessels can be removed with a bit of oil or solvent on a cotton bud (Q-tip) or picked out with a sharp needle or scalpel.
As for colour, go for the one you feel looks best, or have several different shades to match the original remaining one. If you're restoring all the logos at the same time, you won't have to worry about colour matching as you're only going to be using the same colour paste throughout.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-05-09 11:01
The "gold paste" I use is Artist's gold acrylic paint. It may not stay a nice gold color as long as true gold media does but it works....and acrylic paints have several advantages.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-05-10 21:28
Attachment: R13_1964.jpg (83k)
Attachment: R13_1964_Logos.jpg (54k)
IMO the gold paste Chris is referring to is even worse that a gold crayon from Ferree's Tools. Both of these products do not have enough 'gold' in them. For that reason I don't use any gilding product available over the counter. I make it myself. Also, I don't believe you can make a great logo using Chris' technique either. I would like to see a sample of his work on vintage Buffet. Maybe I'm wrong.
Pictures: Buffet R-13 from 1964 I recently overhauled for Sue Raycraft.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-05-10 21:53
An effort with gold wax, rubbing like a crayon and wiping excess off
and after:
Chris
Post Edited (2008-05-10 21:55)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-10 23:26
"Also, I don't believe you can make a great logo using Chris' technique either. I would like to see a sample of his work on vintage Buffet. Maybe I'm wrong."
Yes, you ARE wrong. Thanks for the preconceived judgement, but I really don't appreciate it at all.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2008-05-11 01:55
Hey Chris, not to be rude or anything but I believe Vytas was talking about the Buffet logo. The Couesnon logo is embossed more deeply into the wood than Buffet.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-05-11 08:27
susieray
The Couesnon logo is mine - Chris J
Vytas' comments are directed to Chris P - different, and much more skilled person [my preconceived judgement! ]
Chris J
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2008-05-11 10:29
Hi all. I like both Chris' work and Vitas' work. I think they both look great.
Vitas, if I don't want to send away for gold paste, do you give away your recipe for your gold paste or can I buy it from you? I have had some newer Buffets that the logos have come off completely. Do I take a logo from one that I can see, make a copy of it, transfer it to one with no logo visable at all and then "paint" a new logo on? I think I would get more money for them, if there was a visible logo on them.
I have some gold Rub and Buff for doing picture frames, etc. Has anyone used this to restore logos and how did it turn out? I tried it once, by rubbing the gold onto the logo and I got gold into the grooves of the surrounding wood and so I know that to restore the logos has to be painstaking work not to get it into the surrounding wood. What do you use for a "brush" Vitas?
Bonnie Wilber
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-11 11:27
"I have some gold Rub and Buff for doing picture frames, etc. Has anyone used this to restore logos and how did it turn out?"
That's the same kind of stuff I use, and with a great deal of success, contrary to Vytas' belief.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-05-11 15:18
>"Hey Chris, not to be rude or anything but I believe Vytas was talking about the Buffet logo".<
That's exactly my point plus I meant vintage logo. It's like day and night if you compare restoration on a Vintage STAMPED Buffet (or E&S) logo with the ENGRAVED logo from companies like Couesnon or Howarth London etc..
1. The font in the Buffet logo is two, tree times smaller than the others.
2. The logo is very lightly stamped on Buffets. Most of the logos from other companies are engraved.
3. The lines are very thin.
4. The wood grain is tight but open on vintage Buffet clarinets (especially on the UJ)
The gilding procedure at the factory was relatively easy because prior the gold application the wood grain was treated with wood filler, than stained and finally wood finish was applied. At this point you have very smooth surface with a freshly stamped logo. On the surface like this the gold application was brush on, rub off procedure.
After 30-50 or so years in use you do not have the same smooth surface like at the factory. The wood finish and logos are worn out and the grain filler is almost gone. A stamped and worn logo doesn't have enough depth for gold to to get in and stay in. The gold application rubs almost completely off with just some left at the sides of the logo where it usually stamped deeper. The worn wood finish and open grain creates another problem. You get almost nothing in the logo but a lot of mess around it in the wood grain.
My problem with Chris logo restoration technique description is not about his skill. It's about the steps that are missing. Steps like surface preparation before the application and the surface finish after the cleanup. These steps are not required on deeply engraved logos and relatively new instrument but are essential for a great looking Vintage Buffet (or E&S) logo. Also, who wants to wait for an hour every time gold paste is applied? This is not a good stuff. Maybe I'm wrong!
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2008-05-11 15:53
Note this is Chris J and not Chris P!
The E+S logo is a swine to do. Scratching the old colour out is very tedious because of how shallow the imprint is. The wax rubbing is just the same, however and seems happy to stay in the logo when wiping the excess off. My main problem was that the logo seems to have had two goes at being stamped, and there is a ghost logo in the centre, a couple of mm to one side (which had to be picked out)
My attempt below. I must say, it looks better from a distance that a close up photo. It doesn't compare at all to the amazing results that Vytas posted, but it didn't take long and was an improvement on what was there (which was partial, and mostly turned green!...)
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-11 16:20
"Also, who wants to wait for an hour every time gold paste is applied? This is not a good stuff. Maybe I'm wrong!"
The hour or so that is set aside for the gold paste to dry can be spent doing something else in the meantime (like recutting screw slots, then polishing, burnishing and tempering them all, or polishing up keywork or anything else that could be done in the interim), so it's not wasted sitting around idly twiddling your thumbs and waiting for what is, in effect, watching paint dry.
Besides, the logo is a purely cosmetic thing which serves absolutely no purpose in the performance of an instrument, it's just decoration and a visible advertisment, and I doubt if the player is going to be particularly fussed how the logo has been restored (especially if they ditch the original barrel and bell which have had their logos meticulously restored only to get an aftermarket barrel and bell). Most players I've seen don't even bother to line up the logos on the barrel or bell, so it's really a wasted effort if they disregard them altogether.
Yeah you can mix up your own gold filler with real gold if you choose, but gold paste that contains hardly any gold (as well as gold foil, both being used by manufacturers) can have just as striking an effect and last just as well - the logos on the Selmers I restored and play regularly have lasted well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-05-11 16:22)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-05-11 19:02
Chris J and not Chris P,
Your logo restoration looks better than the one in this picture. The logo in the pic was restored in the professional repair shop. They also made several claims having the best technicians in the world.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: cuscoclarinet
Date: 2008-05-11 19:55
I tried rub-n-buff once and it was far more of a mess than I cared to make. For logo restoration I use a gilder's paste and burnish it in with an agate burnisher used for gold leaf work. I find this lets me put the paste just where I want it and get it in as deep as the impression will allow. Once that's done I rub off the rest with a clean cloth and have had excellent results. I find this method takes about ten minutes to do all four logos.
Of course, it helps that I was once an art framer and have things like agate burnishers and very high quality gilding paste around.
On another note, I wouldn't say that it's necessary to restore imprints except when a client asks or when I'm doing a full restoration job. It does look nice, and contrary to what Chris says above it might be more than just cosmetic, I actually think it does make the tone a little brighter @;->
Post Edited (2008-05-11 19:59)
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2008-05-11 21:12
Is the paste you use, gold colored? I am wondering how you keep it out of the groves of the surrounding wood around the logo because it sounds to me like to do 4 logos in 10 minutes is pretty great and I sure would like to know exactly how you are doing it and I don't quite understand your technique. Sorry if I seem dense, but I really would like to know.
Bonnie Wilber
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