 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-05-03 22:31
Having looked at some ot the recently mention Utube videos (and been sidetracked along the way to see many others) I was amazed at the physical antics of some of the players.
I checked out the search area and see the subject has been pretty well covered several times over past few years so don't want to reopen old debates. My question is "When did it all start - and who was/were the culprit(s)" ? When I started playing many many years ago I don't recall any of the wind artists of those days feeling the need to prance around like a fairy - they were capable of expressing their musical emotions directly through their chosen instrument. Dennis Brain, arguably one of the finest artists of the last century, just put his horn to his lips and produced some of the most sublime music imaginable. Goosens, Thurston, Kell and inumerable other artists did likewise.
The sight of an orchestral wind section weaving and waving in the breeze was unthinkable then, many of the recordings from 40 or more years ago are a testament to the highest and often still unsurpassed artistic achievement.
So where and when did it all start to go wrong ??
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-05-03 22:42
Norman Smale wrote:
> So where and when did it all start to go wrong ??
When body movement became a poor substitute for a convincing musical interpretation.
Unfortunately, it all falls under the guise of showbiz - regardless of what the performer says about how the music "moves them".
I think that the current trend of swooning and swaying will only excalate as audiences want to be musically and visually stimulated for the price of their ticket.
Is this really any different from young pop singers who can not (or refuse to) sing a tune straight - without an excess of ornamental scale runs, turns and vocal riffs ...GBK
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-05-03 22:58
GBK you are totally correct. At all state with Sam Hazo, he said that he wanted people to move to the music. He compared an orchestra concert to a rock concert. Who wants to watch their favorite band and have the drummer and guitar players just playing all stiff? No one. That was his reasoning as to why we should move with the music, I personally don't like too as it looks kind of silly SOME times.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-05-03 23:05
Actually, it looks silly almost ALL the time.
It's almost as annoying as when Whitney Houston and others bellow like wounded water buffalo and hit every note around the one that's written on the page. ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-05-03 23:15
"It's almost as annoying as when Whitney Houston and others bellow like wounded water buffalo and hit every note around the one that's written on the page."
Glad to hear there's several of us that share this exact same sentiment. If only the record insdustry would see things the same way, and not force feed the masses this drivel for their own gain (and at the general public's expense).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-04 00:35
To Norman- As far as movement, I once read, in a collection of writings by Franz Liszt, a statment about his regrets from his youth. One of them was that he regretted using big arm movements and throwing his head this way and that. The reason he did it in the first place is, as he said, he thought it would help him become more famous. He purposely added the "razzle dazzle" to gain easy applause, and he regretted it.
So to your question of "So where and when did it all start to go wrong ??" There clearly have always been performers that move a lot and a little.
I think that the performers of the middle 20th century (which seem to be the ones you are praising) may be a point in history where non-movement became popular.
-----
JJAlbrecht wrote- "It's almost as annoying as when Whitney Houston and others bellow like wounded water buffalo and hit every note around the one that's written on the page."
When studying Baroque vocal music, I found no difference to the "bellow[ing]" you refer to. Could you explain why it is so bad to do now with today's music but it is fine with Baroque music???
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-05-04 00:43
Stiff like a soldier is bad, but floundering around on stage is gaudy.......
Almost always looks rehearsed in front of a mirror.
Gigliotti used to say to not move, but when he performed the Mozart he would swoop his legs big time.
Maybe it was a do as I say, not do.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-05-04 01:12
"When studying Baroque vocal music, I found no difference to the "bellow[ing]" you refer to. Could you explain why it is so bad to do now with today's music but it is fine with Baroque music??"
I never was a big fan of G. F. Handel for that exact reason. Come to think of it, yodeling doesn't really float my boat, either.
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-05-04 10:34
Hello,
Why can't a performer enjoy what he/she is doing, while they are doing it, even if it manifests itself in movement? I will agree that movement does not help the music, and I admit that I'm guilty of moving while playing. I am not aware of it while I'm doing so, however. Only now, in the era of video, can I see what I'm doing. If I purposely thought about not moving while I played, would it hinder my playing? Speaking for myself, I'm going to be me, regardless of what anyone thinks.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-05-04 12:53
>Is this really any different from young pop singers who can not (or refuse to) >sing a tune straight - without an excess of ornamental scale runs, turns and >vocal riffs ...GBK
A friend of mine coined a phrase for this. "Melismatic effluvia".
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Author: kilo
Date: 2008-05-04 13:11
I don't think a little upper body movement is all that unnatural, but I draw the line somewhere around the hips. That snake charmer choreography really looks affected. On the other hand, it's really about the sound so I should probably learn to be a bit more tolerant.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2008-05-04 13:19
I'm not sure if the problem is players moving around a lot, or if the problem is that a lot of us are stuck with our negative judgments about it and hear those negative judgments rattling around in our heads while the music's playing.
Seriously, I was brought up in an era when that sort of 'display' was considered gratuitous and vain, and seriously distracting from the music (in the sense of interposing one's self-aggrandizing, show-offy 'self' between the listener and the actual music).
I remember a clarinet trio performance not long ago composed of Nuccio, Neidech, and Yoshima (Mrs. Charles Neidech), and the music was staggeringly good--yet two-thirds of the trio was swimming like crazy, as though they were underwater and battling a strong bottom current. Of course I had my eyes shut most of the time, which is how I tend to be in a live-music situation anyhow--I just hear more and better with my eyes shut.
I don't really have an answer here; I have all of the objections everyone has raised to the epidemic of 'underwater ballet.' Meanwhile the little Zen Master in my head is saying, "Ahh, grasshopper, the problem isn't that people move around when they play; the problem is that you don't LIKE it!"
See the guy in the middle row with his eyes shut? That's me!
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2008-05-04 14:36
If it's ok for the performers to move all around, then it must be ok for the audience members too, right? Foot tapping, bouncing up and down in their seats, banging heads with the one beside them, who's feelings are out of synch with theirs but no less valid.
And why not humming and singing along? Quite a few pianists do it, even some conductors. It's not in the score, but the idea is feelings, right? Let everyone in the hall show their feelings. See, it isn't just the having of feelings, it's the showing everyone there that you have the wonderful feelings.
Check out what some of the rock musicians (and audience members) do at concerts - now there's some genuine feelings on display. Almost as good as Xtube.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-04 15:06
I am personally happy if my playing can cause someone to tap their foot or sway. It means I am doing something good.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-05-04 16:46
Musicians have to bob and weave and take evasive action nowadays because all those wrong notes and sour pitches have gone feral, and they're on the attack.
Voice-over for YouTube: Beware! It's the dreaded altissimo C-squeak! Quick, dance! Hop! Swerve! It's shrill! It's vicious! It's invisible but all too audible, and it's swooping down mercilessly, the sonic sword of doom, to pierce your eardrum and split your reed! Run! Run for your life!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2008-05-04 16:47
This thread recalls the old bromide;
Years ago someone asked a fiddle player in the NY Phil at the time, what he thought of Leonard Bernstein as a conductor. He replied, "Oh, he's great, as long as you don't look up!"
Clarinet Redux
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-05-05 01:48
Who cares if someone moves while they play? Try playing chamber music while sitting completely still and see how successful your performance is.
I understand that if I go to a concert there are some things that I might have to put up with- babies crying, cell phones ringing, coughing, and maybe even excessive movement on stage. However, if the movement doesn't physically get in the way of the player then I'm not bothered.
I think it's silly to pretend that we know more about music making than some of the brilliant people under question (Bernstein and Handel????). Things change, people move on stage, big deal. If you're stuck in the "good ole days" then enjoy your recordings. I'd much rather go see a live performance.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2008-05-05 03:31
When a leading lady symphony principal jumps about six feet in order to play a middle B long tone as a soloist, you know that something is phony. It may be show biz, but it really is hard to watch, and conveys to me that the performer probably has a choreographer somewhere backstage. Great teachers told me to only move the tongue, the fingers, and the thumb while providing air to the instrument. Nothing else is needed. Musicality is evident in the sounds produced not the dance steps or the swaying.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-05-05 04:36
I think that initial question itself puts an attack on the way people play today and makes the assumption that the past generation (non-plural) of performers was the *correct* way.
On the other side of that coin...
Why did all of those players in the '40s and '50s always just sit there like they were on a bus waiting for their stop? They all look so bored and lifeless in the old videos.
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-05-05 05:58
heh heh, i think i know who Wes is talking about, and i agree.
There's nothing wrong with moving around a bit here and there, but some people take the ball and run with it...
dn
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2008-05-05 07:44
This is just a thought to throw into the mix - could the lack of movement in the mid-C20 players mentioned above be due to the advent of recording? Trying to record something with 1950's (or earlier) microphones while the artist is prancing about may have been difficult - hence the great players learned to stand still and express themselves -exclusively- through the music. As this is how they played, this is what they passed on to their students, and the musical world IMHO is better for it. As the recording technology has moved on, artisits have found that they have more freedom to express themselves in movement. I am not against movement, but too much, or over-exaggerated just looks silly.
I have no evidence for the above points, just a thought that crossed my mind.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-05-05 11:27
Hello,
Well said, Brycon (5 posts ago).
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2008-05-05 11:37
I agree with most - some movement seems natural, and can add to the enjoyment of performer and audience alike, but too much seems phony, and distracts from the performance. As my teacher (CSO clarinetist) used to say - "If only they would take all that emotion and put it through their instrument!" I must agree - all that physical movement must satisfy the performer in some way, but imagine if they stayed more still - what would they do with all that pent up emotion? Put it into their clarinet? What a concept!
And my teacher would also note about particular performers: "look how still they get when the passage is really difficult"!
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-05-05 14:56
A spate of kinesthetic learners perhaps?
Post Edited (2008-05-05 14:57)
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2008-05-05 15:18
Wow...some of y'all just need to sit in the living room and listen to cd's. If somebody moving around a little (or even a lot) makes you that uncomfortable..then don't look.
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Author: Mark G Simon
Date: 2008-05-05 15:44
A certain amount of motion is necessary, especially to signal cues to the other players, like tempo changes and such. Then there's Stockhausen's Harlekin, which has costume and dance built into it.
There are some players, though, who seem to be using their clarinets to stir some invisible pot. This is not a particularly new phenomenon, but I find it distracting when it adds a rhythm to the performance that conflicts with what's in the music.
A number of years ago I played a performance of Berg's Four Pieces, and the only negative comment the critic could say was that I didn't make any expressive motions with the music. There are an awful lot of tempo changes in that piece, so I couldn't have been standing stock still. I don't know what she thought I was supposed to be doing. (the critic later became a good friend. We played together on many occasions and she never mentioned anything about me not moving enough)
Clarinetist, composer, arranger of music for clarinet ensemble
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-05-05 15:44
I joined a band that claimed to play "mostly jazz". I stuck with it for a few months, even though they had a much harder bent towards rock than I would have liked, because they let me play clarinet. The repertoire had deteriorated to the point that we were playing "Mustang Sally" at a gig, and I was playing tenor sax and singing backup. Since I had more vocal parts than sax, I raised the mic to mouth level. When my two notes on sax came up, I panicked and swung the sax up to head level. So there I was feeling like a complete idiot swinging this big hunk of metal back and forth. After the tune was over, I just wanted to crawl off stage and hide. BUT, the band just loved the "gimmick" and encouraged more of it. I have nothing against rock, R&B or showmanship, but I draw the line at moving to the point of getting a sore back. Expressive movement doesn't bother me unless it looks painful.
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Author: Noel
Date: 2008-05-06 06:41
Whilst I think there may be good technical auguments for not moving too much - such as disrupting the emouchure, particularly the position of the tongue or the support of the air column, I personally am a mover. When I am improvising 'up-tempo' I need to find and feel the rhythm and I use my body to feel the cracks between the beats. If it looks absurd I don't care, because it helps me go where I want to go. By contrast, if the music is very still in nature I will tend to mirror that stillness in my body as an aid to finding something to play that matches that stillness. There may be, I will admit, an element of deliberate display involved - putting on a performance, and of course that does have a small element of fakeness. But you could make the same observation about any performance style - after all it's not exactly 'natural' to play in formal dress and follow the strange historical code of correct behaviour that is required at classical concerts.
When I play classical pieces a very small amount of this moving creeps into my playing if I am really enjoying myself, but in general I find a different type of concentration is required. To achieve this focus I am relatvely still, and there's a computational process at work. In fact I suspect I may be using different areas of the brain when I am reading music as against when I am improvising. But if a performer had such command of a work that they could play it without this struggle of concentration, I personally would have no adverse reaction to them using their bodies to express their pleasure in their playing.
A slightly different distinction that no-one has made so far might be between 'emoting' and reflecting enjoyment....
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2008-05-06 11:36
Noel wrote:
>>... if the music is very still in nature I will tend to mirror that stillness in my body as an aid to finding something to play that matches that stillness.>>
Yes. And in general, any physical movement you make that goes against how you feel the music lives will work against you. So it's very difficult to achieve something like stillness in the music if you're moving a lot.
The principle applies to qualities we think of as more affective in nature than 'stillness'. Take 'sadness', for example. Music can be almost unbearably sad sometimes. But very many solo performers don't take advantage of their ability to allow the music to be sad, and instead limit their expression to sadness's ego-tainted relative, 'lament'.
If you think about it, someone's sadness is perhaps most frequently recognised in real life situations by their relative LACK of movement. And that recognition elicits in us a different sort of sympathy from 'lament', which may indeed elicit no sympathy at all -- depending on the circumstances.
On the other hand, relative lack of movement is only possible in the context of more-or-less-normal movement, so a balance has to be struck. In general, I find that the performers I admire most use their choreography intelligently in order to help both themselves and their audiences to be closer to their musical intentions.
>> When I play classical pieces....in general I find a different type of concentration is required. To achieve this focus I am relatvely still, and there's a computational process at work.>>
Good performance is delicately balanced at the interface between conscious and unconscious -- or between computation and instinct. It's possible to argue that ALL good performers, even of classical music, are improvising when they play, responding in real time as they do to what has just occurred. It's a question of degree. You might be interested to read Daryl Runswick's 'The Improvisation Continuum':
http://www.btinternet.com/~daryl.runswick/ImproCont.pdf
...and, 'Notes for Improvisers':
http://www.btinternet.com/~daryl.runswick/notesimpro.pdf
Movement is a part of all this, both as something on the 'conscious' side (our preparation for a particular passage) -- and as something on the 'unconscious' side (our moment by moment response to the musical situation).
What is damaging is when it is both unconscious and inappropriate.
I generally ask students who move excessively to PRACTISE their choreography -- even in a mirror -- so that it better reflects their musical intentions. This instruction -- if they take it seriously -- has the effect of expanding their expressive range, and additionally often reduces their movement to the point where it becomes natural to the viewer.
Of course, if the music NEEDS to 'show off' -- as do some parts of Weber's concertos, for example -- then 'show-off' movements are what is natural. But performers who make those movements in inappropriate places (consciously or unconsciously) merely tend to give the impression that their primary communicative intention is not to share with us a vision of the music, but to share with us a view of themselves as excellent performers.
This may or may not be true, of course -- Sabine Meyer said to me once, oh God yes, I know I move around too much! -- and she's certainly serious about the music. Still, I think it's a shame, because it sets a bad example to others who aren't so serious.
Tony
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2008-05-06 15:37
Tony Pay wrote:
> The principle applies to qualities we think of as more
> affective in nature than 'stillness'. Take 'sadness', for
> example. Music can be almost unbearably sad sometimes. But
> very many solo performers don't take advantage of their ability
> to allow the music to be sad, and instead limit their
> expression to sadness's ego-tainted relative, 'lament'.
>
> If you think about it, someone's sadness is perhaps most
> frequently recognised in real life situations by their relative
> LACK of movement. And that recognition elicits in us a
> different sort of sympathy from 'lament', which may indeed
> elicit no sympathy at all -- depending on the circumstances.
I have never thought about it in that way. I don't know how widespread this idiom is in the English-speaking world, but around here a response to "lament" ,as you have used the term here, is to say that a thousand tiny violins are playing in the background. One would never say that in response to true sadness.
Barb
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-05-06 15:45
Those of us fortunate enough to have watched and listened to Tony Pay live will understand he's giving perceptive information here. He moves in a way that seems normal, without holding himself unnaturally rigid, but also without the distractions of involuntary tics or self-conscious, excessive mannerisms. In fact, from the audience, I didn't really think about whether or not he moved around. I thought about how he played the music: brilliantly, as did his fellow musicians (Library of Congress, chamber ensemble of winds and string bass from the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, December 2006). If there was anything calculated about when and how he moved, I wasn't aware of it: It was all a part of the music.
That's my major beef with people who squirm and shudder and hop and dip and swoop. They take my attention off the music. There are places where the music needs some movement for good reasons other than emotive content: raising or lowering the clarinet changes the position of the lip on the reed and can shift the intonation. We've also had a thread somewhere along here about Stockhausen and other composers who've written scores with instructions to musicians to perform dance or acting maneuvers while playing. But I think most of us know "too much" when we see and hear it, even if we haven't always learned to control it when we do it. Sheesh, some people stir the cauldron with the clarinet so much that they produce a Doppler shift: A sustained tone goes "Wow-ow-ow-ow" round and round the circle. Drives me bonkers.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2008-05-06 15:47)
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