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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-24 18:19
Perhaps as suggested there is just a personality conflict. Who would have thought masicism to be an important piece of the Teutonic psyche.
For my money, though the current crop of music directors is NOT in the same league as their predecessors, Rattle is by far the top of the list.
Maybe he will be Ricardo Morales' next boss............wherever that will be.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-04-25 02:02
I certainly think it a mistake for Rattle to be dismissed with about 5 years left on his contract. In sum Rattle has great things to offer musically and still has the grip on alot of repetoire very few conductors out there match.
His recent Beethoven cycle is excellent as well as Nielsen recordings with the Berlin..I mean to conduct Beethoven that well certainly deserves consideration.
As to his Mahler I still think he is evolving and although some have been hyper critical of Rattle in this music he is still very much a force to taken into account..added to that his genial manner and sense of sound .. I am quite sure other orchestras at the moment are interested in him already..and by this I mean orchestras on par with Berlin.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-04-25 02:30
Yes, on par with Berlin. But not Berlin.
Sometimes it just doesn't work out with orchestras. He certainly took them in a different direction and his work may be felt for some time. That said, his musical personality and aims might just not be the right fit at this time for this orchestra. So, he'll move on to the next great orchestra and hopefully find a better fit. Not a monumental story.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2008-04-25 12:38
That's a tough gig. In their history, they've only had 10 music directors, and four of them were Bulow, Nikisch, Furtwangler, and Karajan. That's as good as it gets - the B team for Berlin's music directors would be Celibidache and Abbado. Abbado was a great fit until he had his health problems. Rattle's terrific, but he's clearly a step or two down from the six I've listed.
Since youtube clips are popular here, I figured I'd supply my favorite orchestral clip - Furtwangler/Berlin in 1948 rehearsing Brahms 4th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leYbb5KZYDg
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-04-25 13:46
Why is everyone implying the conductors of today are not on par with the conductors of yesterday?
Was Karajan really so much better than Levine, Haitink, Maazel, or did he achieve star status because classical music was glamorous then?
Just like any other classical music job, the new crop of professional is in my opinion better than the old crop. Of course there are always exception to the rule, but overall there are more and I dare say better musicians in the classical music world today than there was 50 years ago, including conductors.
That being said here is a video of one of my favorite conductor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trr_9rXaI1U
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2008-04-25 13:58)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-25 13:56
Karajan, Furtwangler, Toscanini, Munch, Reiner, Szell, yes even Stokowski were ALL amazing musicians who were not afraid to present there interpretations which were ALWAYS musical if not what would please everyone.
Much of today's renditions strive for the concept of universal acceptance and in the execution fail to speak to the soul.
Of course note perfect is an ok goal..........now let's try to make some music.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-04-25 15:00
"Was Karajan really so much better than Levine, Haitink, Maazel, or did he achieve star status because classical music was glamorous then?"
Maazel is awful and should never be mentioned in a list like this.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-04-25 15:12
In terms of well known conductors he certainly fits the list. In terms of your own personal taste, perhaps not? :-)
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Author: robertgh
Date: 2008-04-25 15:58
<<Maybe he will be Ricardo Morales' next boss............wherever that will be.>>
Rattle's yearly stints with the Philadelphians are generally among the high points of the orchestra's season. There seems to be a mutual enthusiasm there and he has been at or near the top of a lot of people's 'wish lists' for some time now.
Having said that, though, I wonder what a long-term relationship in Philly might entail. Given the acoustic problems of Verizon Hall — the difficulty performers have of hearing each other on the stage — and considering the rather vague 'stick work' Rattle displayed in that televised performance of the Mahler Ninth back last fall, one wonders if it all might go the way of the Eschenbach experience (personalities aside).
It's probably another thread topic, but I've often wondered about the relationship between orchestra, conductor, and venue —whether some conductors are a better 'fit' on that basis than others. Any thoughts from the pros here?
Bob H.
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-04-25 16:16
They hated Karajan at first and harked back to Furtwangler.
In any case, Sir Simon is great box office. That does not equate with being popular with the musicians. If the orchestra does not need a boost to its earning capability, (which I doubt they do) then they can take this line as long as there is someone "better" available to take over (big "if"). Rattle is probably at his best putting a good but under-regarded orchestra on the world map, like Dutoit did in Montreal, and Rattle did brilliantly at Birmingham.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-04-26 01:26
Paul Aviles:
"Much of today's renditions strive for the concept of universal acceptance and in the execution fail to speak to the soul."
On what basis can you make this remark? Have you heard "today's conductors" express their goal of striving for universal acceptance? Comments like this absolutely can't go unchallenged. You're assuming knowledge you don't have. In addition, it smacks of the kind of nostalgia that is more a product of wanting to revere the old instead of actually appeciating musical strides of modern conductors. When I see phrases like "fail to speak to the soul," used in such a blanketed way, I have no choice but to reduce it to just a flowery statement that has almost no legitimate meaning.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-04-26 05:07
Has anyone played under Simon Rattle? Or any of the conductors mentioned for that matter? Most of these conductors are on a musical level that all of us strive for but very few will reach. How can you judge their artistry when you can't even understand the aesthetic choices they make?
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Author: srattle
Date: 2008-04-26 10:59
I prefer not to really make any comment about this, but please could some of you actually know some facts before making gross generalizations?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-26 15:41
Dear J.J.,
I listen to what's being played and I hear that one rendition sounds much more remarkably the same as another NOW as opposed to just ten years ago or so. My guess is that it is a function of money, trying to keep audiences (paying patrons, endowment givers, record buyers) as well as the tendency for everyone to want a civil atmosphere at all costs. I doubt that even in Europe many conductors could get away with the sheer force of will that conductors of the past had at their disposal.
Listen, listen to the radio and see if you can guess which orchestra that is, or which conductor is leading that orchestra.
I still get pleasantly surprised by some group with a particularly vibrant showing of a particular work, but those moments are fewer than I would like.
I am entitled to my own sweeping generalizations as much as you are to your imperical evidence but I would offer this:
During a fund raising radio marathon Sir Georg Solti of the Chicago Symphony was asked what goals he had for the symphony. His answer was [I paraphrase here] "to keep it as good as it is."
That was a mark of the things that have come to pass throughout the field.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-04-26 15:52
Paul, do you honestly believe that music directors are making their musical choices based on it being "...a function of money, trying to keep audiences (paying patrons, endowment givers, record buyers) as well as the tendency for everyone to want a civil atmosphere at all costs." Do you think that music directors in make their decisions this way? Do you think that management of orchestras are influencing the interpretations and execution of music directors?
The answer, plain and simple, is no way. It's one thing to throw out an idea that this could be happening, but it's quite another to actually picture and illustrate the scenario under which this could take place. If you feel orchestras are sounding more similar today, there are a myriad of reasons for why this could be true. But this idea that music directors are trying to save their audience through compromising their interpretations is just an idea that doesn't hold water.
And yes, you are entitled to your sweeping generalizations, but that doesn't make them correct or above serious questioning.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-04-28 11:46
Update: According to an AFP report, the Berlin Philharmonic issued a press release on Friday, April 25, stating that its musicians not only want to retain Simon Rattle until his contract expires in 2012 but want to extend the contract. He's in negotiations with the orchestra now. I'm wondering whether this rumor of his supposedly impending ouster may be primarily a negotiating ploy.
Meanwhile, Lawrence Van Gelder reports in "The New York Times" for Monday, April 28, that Pamela Rosenberg, "the first woman and the first American to become the administrative director of the Berlin Philharmonic, plans to leave the job when her contract expires in 2010," according to the Bloomberg News.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2008-04-28 11:47)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-04-28 15:45
Silvain says
"Just like any other classical music job, the new crop of professional is in my opinion better than the old crop...... including conductors."
I believe that there have been many incredible music minds in the previous generations. There have been countless genius performers and conductors. One can learn SO much from listening to what has come before us. There has been so much of music that will never be surpassed.
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Author: John25
Date: 2008-04-29 08:44
Brycon asked "Has anyone played under Rattle?" I have, twice. Once when he was 15 years old I played the Mozart Gran Partita under him. It was obvious at that time that he was going to be someone big in the music world. He wrote a letter to me to thank me and I kept it (I wish I knew where it was now!).The second time was in 2001. I can only say that the experience was uplifting and far superior to playing under any other conductor I have known.
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