 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: R. Pirce
Date: 2008-04-22 20:14
Suggestions, please.
My husband bought an Orsi CL21 EV clarinet for me about two years ago.
It has been a great instrument until I made the mistake of letting a tech who I never used before, but who was recommend by the professor of clarinet at a nearby university, see what he could do about an overly stuffy RH 3rd side key Bb/D.
When I talked to him on the phone, he said he adjusted the venting on the RH stack and replaced the pads on the A and Eb keys. When I got the horn back, it was slightly improved, but in a matter of weeks, I noticed that the clarion G, A, B, and especially C, weren't speaking very easily, the problem getting worse the higher the pitch.
So I:
- Removed the register key and cleaned out the register tube, inspecting it with a leak light and magnifying glass, then testing the high clarion before putting the register key back. No difference, so it wasn't the register key venting or gunk in the tube.
- Removed the first LH ring key for the tone hole that would normally be open for the clarion C and played it after cleaning out the tone hole. No difference, so it wasn't a dirt or venting problem there, either.
- Cleaned and very carefully inspected the LH finger holes. Clean when I started, clean when I finished.
- Checked for leaks and weak springs for every pad in that area of the clarinet with a leak light and suction and blowing tests. Nothing.
- Tested the clarinet with two different mouthpieces. No difference.
The limits of my understanding of what to try next have been reached.
Everything is spic and span and seems to be set up just fine. The only ideas I have are:
- The register tube has been moved or somehow changed.
- The bore has changed.
- There's a nasty crack that I might not have seen because I don't want to see it.
So, where I am now is that I have a clarinet that played great two months ago, but has changed, or has been changed, over the last few weeks so that I can't get a clean attack at piano or pianissimo for the clarion A, B, and C.
(I'm not at all convinced that the work the tech did on it is the problem, but there's a correlation, at least.)
Anyone have any suggestions before I send the instrument off to one of the "big guys"? (Which will mean canceling a recital and two performances.)
Thanks.
Robin
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-22 23:52
Well I wonder about a leak.
Does it seal really well all together......like a coke bottle?
If not, I would remove ALL the keys, place electrical tape over all the (key holes) and then start the leak test from there, replacing the highest key first, test, go to the next, etc. Don't forget to do the leak test with ALL the holes taped. I found (what I suspected to be a register tube leak) a leak caused by a manufacturing error - the tap for one of the posts litterally went through all the way to the bore but because the post was in the hole, it was virtually invisible until the I removed the post (as indicated by the above test).
That problem easily remedied by some super glue.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-04-23 00:57
Sounds like a leak to me, too. You probably have already thought of what I'm about to mention, but just in case . . .
I noticed that you didn't mention whether you had this problem with clarion G#, Bb, C#, or any other side key pads. Are those notes affected, too? If you have a leak in one of those keys' pads, the problem should disappear when you use that key. So, for example, if you can get Bb to work properly, but nothing else, chances are good that you have a leak in that side key's pad. If G#, Bb, and C# are all just as bad as G, A, B, and C natural, then you know that either 1.) there's no leak in any of those keys' pads or 2.) you have more than one problem with your instrument.
Also, you didn't mention whether you checked the lower joint for leaks. Although it seems counterintuitive, it is theoretically possible for one of the lower joint pads to affect the response of notes further up the instrument (like the way the F#/C# key gets used in the upper altissimo like a register key). Before taking the instrument apart, I'd at least check the bottom joint just to rule this out.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth . . . ." :-)
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-04-23 01:05
Mabey its the pad placement. Pad replacement is an art-form and one very minute mistake can cause a whole bunch of new problems if you cn't fix the problem with any of the tips offered by the other members of the bboard I suggest taking the instrument to a different tech and have him/her re-replace the pads that were changed. It would be a shame o have to cancel your performances. Try to find someone who will lend you their instrument if need be.
Good Luck
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Author: R. Pirce
Date: 2008-04-23 02:21
Paul,
When you deal with clarinets, it's really "asking for it" to say you're sure of something, but I'm pretty sure that all the pads are sealing correctly. I went over the horn three times, and nothing. But I'll give it another try, this time adding the "smoke" test. Yes, it seals like "a coke bottle," and there'd be no place for a leak at the joints because the only joint on the horn is at the bell: one piece, not even a separate barrel.
Good information about your experience with the problem with the key post. Could be!
Also, wondering if the register tube has a leak around it. I don't see anything, and it's awfully hard to test by suction because it takes two people with this clarinet, but that's what I'm going to try next.
MRN,
Your point is well taken regarding the notes that I didn't mention. However, the clarion C being the biggest problem, and that note involving only the A/Ab/and register key, I didn't pay much attention to that. However, I just tried these notes, and the problem persists there too. Also, I tried the lower "joint" as you suggested, but nothing.
I can't help thinking it's something going on with the register tube...or something like Paul's post problem...or the dreaded unrecognized crack. I've gotta rule out pads at this point, though; I'm not claiming infallibility, but I know pads pretty well, and I've reached the limit of my skills there.
I think I need to take a night off on this and regroup. Can't see the forest for the trees, maybe.
Anyway, thanks your your help Paul, MRN, and Ryder.
Robin
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-23 08:11
Especially with bladder pads, a leak light is pretty useless. Even with other pads it's not as good as on instruments with a reflective bore. You need to check every pad with a feeler. It's common to use thin rolling papers (like you use for smoking). I don't know where you are but it's easy to buy them just about anywhere here. If you don't know how to check this with the feeler post and I (or someone else) will explain.
Suction is not a great test. A method that is better (I learned from Gordon, another repairer who post on this forum) is to blow instead of suck, but don't blow normally. You need to puff your chicks and squirt the air out. You can tell a leak by the resistance you feel. IMO this method has a much better feel than just blowing air or suction.
I don't like the smoke test because it leaves the smell on the instrument. Cigarette and cigar are the worst smoke smell IMO and I'd rather have a leaky instrument than one with that smell (but that's never a dillema). Even other smoke smell that I don't mind as much I wouldn't like on the instrument. The small will stay. Though if you don't mind that, then go ahead.
There is another method that Gordon taught me I have used as a last resort. It is harder to do with the one piece clarinet but still ok though you need another person to help you. While you close all the keys and have the end blocked, fill the instrument with water. You may want to blow gently into it while it is filled with water. Then empty the clarinet from the water from the bottom (leave the keys closed), then reseal the bottom and blow into the clarinet. Air bubbles and maybe even water will go through the leaks.
It is rare that I need to use this method but in the few times it has never failed. I found a few tricky leaks with it. Though usually the feeler and air squirt test is all it takes.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-04-23 08:39
I suspect that the lower joint's triple ring key is lower than before. Thus the left hand middle finger key is also too low. Take off the LJ ring key and try again. If the problem is gone the padding under the key foot needs to be made thinner.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-23 13:24
Yes, the feeler guage is more acurate to pinpoint a problem if you don't want to go through the hassle of removing all the keys.
I recommend BOTH suction and blowing through the instrument, particularly the lower joint. I don't see a problem with one doing suction solo though. You only need to hold your fingers over their respective holes and block the open end with your OTHER hand (maybe use some moisture on the palm, or heal of the thumb, to help the seal).
Good luck with the project. I still am betting you can fix it yourself.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-23 13:54
"I recommend BOTH suction and blowing through the instrument... I don't see a problem with one doing suction solo though. You only need to hold your fingers over their respective holes and block the open end with your OTHER hand"
Yes I didn't mean doing the suction test is bad. I just think you have a better "feel" for it when squirting the air from the chicks. The suction can sometimes hide leaks that are more obvious with the "squirting".
You're right about the "solo" in general but as the original poster said their clarinet is one piece and doesn't have joints, so you need your third hand to do this  But to still do it solo you can use some rubber (or similar) if you have the correct size or maybe your foot somehow, probably possible with the full length of the clarinet (though dry skin as the bottom of the foot might leak so don't use that ).
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Author: R. Pirce
Date: 2008-04-23 22:48
Figgered it out!
Seems that the jerk (sorry, but I can't think of a more-polite description) I mentioned before who worked on the instrument for filed both ends of the throat Eb rod tube down for some reason, so that the key was shifting on the rod! It was shifting a very small amount, but enough to mess up the pad seating. Can you believe it?
Why the key didn't move when I tested the pad seals so many times, I have no idea, but as I was checking the set screw for the Eb key venting, I noticed that the key was moving up and down on the rod. Then, checking the ends of the tube with a stereo microscope, I saw that the plating was gone on the ends and there were what looked like new file marks there.
My local tech buffed the file marks out, swedged the tube, and now all is well. (Good thing the guy didn't file the posts!)
Just goes to show you that, if you're not looking for it, you're not likely to see it.
By the way, I don't like working on my own instruments for this very reason; I'm too "close" to them. I wonder if anyone else here feels the same way.
Anyway, thanks for all your kind help! It helped me focus.
Robin
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Author: John25
Date: 2008-04-24 10:26
Robin - I'm glad you managed to sort it out. I am a little puzzled, though. Where is the "throat Eb rod"? I understood that the "throat notes" were F to Bb.
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