 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-04-01 22:18
This question is about the bass clarinet part. Do you play the treble clef parts up an octave? They don't seem to make musical sense if you don't. If you do play it up an octave is all of Richard Strauss the same?
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-01 22:22
You do indeed play ALL the treble clef bits an 8ve higher than they're written. This is standard practice in German bass clarinet writing - the bass clef parts are written a tone higher than they sound, as do the treble clef bits - not a 9th as we're used to with treble clef Bb basso.
I played this recently, but rewrote the lot out the night before the concert day (in treble clef Bb basso) and sight read it on the rehearsal a few hours before the concert. Not the wisest of moves!
A German colleague/cor player said to me 'You need to learn to read in German!'.
A bit more on 'Tod und Verklaerung' here
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=263574&t=49170
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-04-01 22:30)
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-04-01 22:44
I found a great midi file for the bass part so am putting it all in treble clef, I'm too old and stupid to transpose two lines/spaces down and park it on the next space/line and jack up the treble clef an octave too. Thank God for Sibelius.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2008-04-02 02:50)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-04-02 00:39
The only major composers that did not observe the rules of going an octave high when a bass clarinet part goes from bass clef to treble clef is Rachmaninoff, he always got it wrong. Stravinsky got it wrong a couple of times two. Wagner, Franck, Strauss,Dukas and many others always got it correct. Basically, just use common sense to determine and you’ll always be right, almost always anyway. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-04-03 01:19)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-04-02 18:37
Geez, I recall reading a part that had the high bits in tenor clef.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: William
Date: 2008-04-02 22:21
Chris P wrote, "You do indeed play ALL the treble clef bits an 8ve higher than they're written. This is standard practice in German bass clarinet writing - the bass clef parts are written a tone higher than they sound, as do the treble clef bits - not a 9th as we're used to with treble clef Bb basso."
Is this true for the Mahler 4 as well. I'm playing the third clarinet part which calls for treble clef bass clarinet in Bb and A. Up an octave--yes, no?? My part is from the Luck Music Library.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-04-03 01:18
It only applies if the piece goes from bass clef to treble not if it is only in the treble clef. Mahler, Ravel and many others only wrote in the treble clef. ESP, www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-04-06 19:43
OK, another question on the piece. When you change within a line from bass to treble clef or treble to bass clef what happens to the key signature when nothing is indicated? Is it assumed that the placement of the sharps and flats also moves appropriately? Bar 93 is a good example.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-06 21:03
The key signature still applies, so as it's in one flat in bass, it'll still have the same relative key signature in treble clef (one flat). Although the key signature isn't included each time you change clefs, it gets moved according to the clef (but not written in each time as that'll take up too much room).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2008-04-08 14:30
Being rather inexperianced at orchestral bass clarinetting, I need to ask--when you see a bass cleff Bb written for Bb bass clarinet, do you play Bb on the bass, or do you transpose and play C?? Way back in college arranging class, we were all taught that all bass clef parts are always written in concert pitch. Is the "rule" different for bass clarinet parts written in bass clef?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-04-08 14:57
For William, bass clarinet parts in the bass clef are all in either Bb or A, never in C. When you see a G on the lower line of the bass clef you play the lowest G on the bass clarinet. Of course if it’s in A, as some Wagner and others, you would have to transpose down a half step and play a G flat. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-08 15:39
"Way back in college arranging class, we were all taught that all bass clef parts are always written in concert pitch. Is the "rule" different for bass clarinet parts written in bass clef?"
Some orchestral scores have almost everything (except perhaps for piccolos, contras and double basses as there wouldn't be enough room for that kind of thing) written out in concert pitch (eg. Berg) to make it easy for the conductor (so bass clarinet parts will be in concert pitch bass clef in the score), though the instrumental parts would be written out (transposed) accordingly - so the bass clarinet parts will be written out in the manner the composer/arranger has been taught to do so - be it in bass clef or treble clef depending on where they learnt or who taught them orchestration.
Though in the English translation of "Treatise on Instrumentation" by Berlioz/R. Strauss, it clearly reads "It [bass clarinet] is written, like the other clarinets, in the G-clef." Though Strauss has included a couple of Wagner extracts from 'Tristan...', these are for bass clarinet in A, written as one would expect, in bass clef transposed up a minor 3rd from concert pitch for an A bass.
So it's an unwritten rule (and not written in this book) that German bass clarinet writing is in bass clef as R.Strauss (and Wagner) did, though not as he said (though he probably only repeated Berlioz's words there, and not added anything). Rimsky-Korsakov's "Principles of Orchestration" shows a range/tonal colour chart of the woodwinds, and the bass clarinet is in treble clef on that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-04-08 15:46)
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Author: William
Date: 2008-04-09 13:34
Of course, different composers have different methods for writting their music down on manuscript, but in general, instruments that traditionally read in bass clef are reading concert pitch representations, not X instrument in Z. That was the basis for my confusion regarding bass clef bass clarinet. Thanks once again to Ed P for helping me understand. Mahler #4 went very well last evening.........no bass clarinet parts written in bass clef, but some treble clef A parts. Great music and fun playing.
Post Edited (2008-04-09 20:15)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-04-09 15:42
The "bass clef in concert pitch" rule applies to trombones and tubas, for which either treble or bass clef may be used, but not both in the same score.
In orchestra and concert band scores, the trombone and tuba parts are in concert pitch, in bass clef or (at least for trombones) tenor clef.
In brass band scores the tenor trombones are notated in treble clef up a ninth (same as bass clarinet or tenor sax), the Eb tubas in treble clef up an octave and a sixth (same as contra-alto clarinet or baritone sax) and the Bb tubas in treble clef up two octaves and a tone (same as contrabass clarinet or bass sax). However the bass trombone part is (almost always) notated in bass clef at concert pitch.
As has been explained above, bass clef parts for bass clarinet aren't in concert pitch. Similarly, horn parts may descend into the bass clef, in which case they continue to transpose. Horn parts are especially confusing, because different composers have different rules about which octave they are in; also horn parts are very often written without key signatures, making it impossible to tell what the transposition is just by comparing them with other parts.
For example, in Mahler 4, look a few bars after rehearsal number 7 in the 3rd movement. The violins are in four sharps, the clarinets and bass clarinet are in A and are written in treble clef in one sharp. The horns are in F and have no key signature (not fve sharps as you'd expect). The second horn has a written B3 in treble clef, sounding down a fifth as E3. This is followed by a written Ab1 in bass clef. This sounds Db2 (up a fourth) in unison with the 3rd bassoon. It can't be down a fifth, which is lower than a horn can play.
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