 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2008-04-02 21:44
I wish, since so many other people get such great enjoyment from jazz, that my ears were capable of hearing what it is that's interesting about it. Whatever I do listening to music I do like, it doesn't work on jazz. Surely my loss. Can't have everything I guess.
It just sounds so, so, unimportant.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2008-04-03 22:03
A few years back I was riding with my brother, a loyal Dead Head of many years standing, and I noticed a bunch of his Grateful Dead concert tapes. I'd never heard any work by that group, except for a tune or two that made it to pop radio. He put on one of the tapes, and I listened carefully for quite some time.
Finally my brother gently told me, "You're not going to get it by listening, Phil." I asked how could that possibly be, and he gave me to understand that there was a bigger context that I had to appreciate.
I was never able to accomplish that context grasp, possibly due to unwillingness to take time for it. However, I don't think I needed much time at all to start enjoying classical, back in the day, though there have always been many pieces and composers that have remained tough for me to appreciate.
Over the years, I heard a fair amount of Art Tatum, Pete Fountain, Al Hirt, Stephan Grapelli, Oscar Peterson, Dave Brubeck, Django Reinhardt, a few others. At best this makes me a jazz newbie, but in fact I got very little out of any of it, except realizing that Pete Fountain could really play clarinet, which is not the same. (All those people could really play their instruments, I believe.)
William, your question reminds me of what my brother said.
It would be nice to experience what makes the sax playing in the posted link special, both for my own enjoyment and also for my playing, as my listeners could theoretically include people who also enjoy jazz, and I might otherwise be omitting stylistic value.
Is the appreciation of jazz, blues, ethnic, and other genres valuable to a clarinettist who may never play that music? How?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-04-04 01:43
Hi,
I never cared much for Jimmy Guiffre then and I can see why. When one compares the work of Stan Getz, Gerry Mulligan, Illinois Jacquet, Georgie Auld, Bob Cooper, Bird, Zoot Sims, Paul Desmond, Art Pepper, and similar players to this, I can see why I made that evaluation. IMHO, Giuffre's playing is not that innovative or inspiring.
HRL
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-04-04 03:54
I think any jazz clarinetist that is put next to Bird, Trane, Stan Getz, Art Pepper, etc. can't compare (maybe with the exception of Sidney Bechet).
However, I don't think an improviser (or composer for that matter) has to be innovative to be a great artist. One of my favorite saxophonists is Sonny Stitt, and he was by no means an innovator. I like Jimmy Guiffre, and I've always thought his trio was hip. Thanks for the post.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-04-04 11:59
Hello,
Giuffre is one of my favorites. His playing is the ultimate in subtlety. Many people are impressed by "a lot of notes", but it brings to mind a paraphrased quote from Louis Armstrong "I didn't learn to play until I learned which notes to leave out of my solos".
It's funny about individual taste. For instance, from Hank's list, I really admire Getz, Mulligan, Desmond, and Pepper (listen to his clarinet work--he didn't do much, but what he did was incredible) and don't enjoy Parker or Sims much. I haven't heard enough of the others to present an informed opinion.
To this list, I would of course add as "must hears": Artie Shaw (my favorite), Al Gallodoro and Ken Peplowski.
There's a funny story about Giuffre, by the way, related to me by a colleague that studied with David Baker. So, Giuffre is in town for a master class at Indiana University when Baker and he start discussing Giuffre's latest record. Giuffre wants to give Baker a copy, so they walk down to the local record shop. Giuffre asks the clerk for the latest Giuffre album. The clerk says "it's pronounced 'Guffrey'". Giuffre says "no, it's pronounced 'Jufrie'. The clerk says "no, I'm a jazz history major at IU, it's pronounced 'Guffrey', I think I'd know". Giuffre hands his driver's license to the clerk as he says "no, I'm pretty sure it's pronounced 'Jufrie'."
Perception of jazz is also interesting. I've met a lot of people who claim, as Philip does, to not get it or enjoy it. Of course, there are many iterations of music that get the label 'jazz'. Even within the genre of jazz, there are styles which I don't like and could even, perhaps, say I detest. However, I have found that anyone that plays jazz thinks it's the most incredible music there is. It is quite rewarding to be "composing on the spot" as you improvise a new tune or old standard.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to like jazz if you don't like it. Just some random, stream of consciousness thougts. Sorry to jump around the map of thought!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-04-04 12:11
Brycon,
But on this video, Giuffre plays clarinet less that 60 seconds. IMHO, that does not make someone a jazz clarinetist. Actually, the clarinet playing he did was pretty simplistic and based on one chord. Not amazing in any way that I can see.
Did I miss something. Giuffre did not get it done on sax either (about 3 minutes of playing). Check out this youtube (Shank, Cooper, and Perkins blow the house down). Giuffre is OK but...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBdHpA2cMSQ&feature=related
HRL
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-04-04 13:44
Hello Hank,
Thanks for that video. Yeah, he seems like a fish out of water. I guess that points to why I like him. I hate these kinds of ensembles--loud modern jam session, essentially, with little or no interaction between the performers, just solos demonstrating one's technical and cognitive ability to improvise. Guiffre is trying to depart from that tradition, even in this video, but doesn't do a very good job at it.
Giuffre excelled in small, intimate ensembles, more like chamber music than anything else. The tunes he chose and wrote were more simplistic and he played "tastefully". There are several albums of Giuffre's that have been transferred to disc, which I own. My favorite is titled something like "clarinet". It's all he plays on the album with his trio, as well as some other ensembles, including a clarinet trio with cl, alto cl, and bass. Great playing.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-04-04 14:37
Hi Ben,
Yes, "loud modern jam session, essentially, with little or no interaction between the performers, just solos demonstrating one's technical and cognitive ability to improvise" is pretty accurate. But as a still-working jazz player, that's what happens a lot on some hard-swinging big bands that I have worked with in the past couple of years.
I enjoy working with a small group a lot and do have my favorite keyboard players in Eric and Mike (but several have Gone West). But the club dates where you can do the intimate kinds of things you suggest are just about gone in the Toledo area.
HRL
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-04-04 14:54
Hello Hank,
I'm sorry to hear about the "scene" drying up in Toledo. I'm doing quite a lot of it here in the D.C. area. It's the best professional area I've lived. I guess I'm lucky with my military band job that I can choose what gigs I take now. I like nothing less than 3 or 4 wind players at a jam session--it drives me crazy! I've also avoided club dates because I can't stand the smoke. Luckily, Maryland just passed the smoking ban for all restaurants and clubs and D.C. did recently. So, now those open up for me too!
I much prefer my trio of clarinet, guitar, and bass. Sometimes the guitarist plays an electric, but I prefer when he plays his acoustic. It really is like playing a classical chamber music gig.
Best of luck in Toledo!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-04 17:28
"But on this video, Giuffre plays clarinet less that 60 seconds. IMHO, that does not make someone a jazz clarinetist. Actually, the clarinet playing he did was pretty simplistic and based on one chord. Not amazing in any way that I can see."
Maybe I chose the wrong words. I thought the music was amazing, so not necessarily the playing, although the playing creates the music so.... I agree that he doesn't show amazing skills on any instruments in this clip, but he shows amazing music skills. The other players too. How long he played is not important IMO. Maybe I made a mistake even referring specifically to the people playing, because I simply was talking about the music. I have a few CDs of Jimmy Giuffre and there is a lot of it that I think is not so good (and some is), which has no effect at all on what I think about the music in this clip.
Except the few I am not familiar with, I like very much the players you mention, which also is irelevant to my opinion about the music in the clip. I think they play very good in the specific context, exactly the best for the music they are making. Of course if someone doesn't like it it is ok!
"Yeah, he seems like a fish out of water."
I saw that clip. Yeah he has a moment near the end where he is a bit stuck but for most of it really not fish out of water. Exept a few moments I thought his solo was very good. I also liked the flugelhorn player.
"loud modern jam session"
Modern? It's from 1983 and even for that it's old fashioned! Not that it's necessarily a bad thing.
And for no reason here is a clip of another player who is a great saxophonist and musician http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4I-2J_WJgQ
In many ways very different the an the Giuffre clip I posted but the basic ideas that make them both very good are the same, each in it's completely different way. In this clip it is also not just the playing abilities (which are very high) that make the music good (they just allow this music to be possible).
Post Edited (2008-04-05 05:36)
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-04-04 18:36
Ben,
You don't like Bird? Isn't that blasphemy?
Since we're talking about favorites, some of mine are: Johnny Hodges, Bird, Lee Konitz, Art Pepper, Sonny Stitt, Sonny Rollins, Wayne Shorter, Cannonball, Phil Woods, Trane, and Brecker.
Art Pepper plays some clarinet on the album "Art Pepper plus Eleven." I remember reading that he studied clarinet in highschool and even played "Flight of the Bumblebee" for a test piece- must have had some chops.
If you dig the small group/interactive thing, I've always thought that Bill Evans Trio was amazing. I prefer his trio with Scott Lefaro playing bass, but this is still great:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89B6OmBuG4A
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-04-04 18:44
Hello Brycon,
I suppose it is blasphemous, but his recordings really don't speak to me. I do admire his abilities and his innovation, even if the direction he lead jazz is not one that I like. I suppose the same can be said for my feelings about Coltrane as well.
I guess as equally blasphemous is that I'm not a huge fan of Benny Goodman either. For my ears, put him beside Artie Shaw and there's no comparison.
Of course, getting away from wind players, you have Bill Evans and Oscar Peterson, and the list goes on. I do think some of my greatest influences have been non-clarinetists, but mostly wind players.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-04-04 20:19
Hi All,
I really think each of the posters has made several wonderful points. as a jazz player, I may approach things a little differently but "viva la difference."
I do think Bird was pretty amazing but check out this clip from youtube that has Coleman Hawkins and Bird. IMHO, Hawk blows the Bird away; less is definately more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFsL9EwplNo
The same logic could just as easily apply when comparing Giuffre and say Eddie Daniels. When does getting around the instrument trump style.
HRL
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-04-04 21:01
Hank,
I love this video- Coleman Hawkins was a fantastic player!
Bird kind of turned the jazz ballad into a virtuoso show piece. So comparing the two playing a ballad is definitely a case of apples and oranges. If you think all Bird could do was get around on the sax, then check out that clip of him playing Celerity with Buddy Rich on drums- sick playing.
If you look at the transcriptions of Bird and play through them slowly, there are some beautiful melodic lines. His note choice, voice leading, etc. are great. He could just think and produce on another level.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-04-04 21:41
Hello,
Good points, Hank and Brycon. I do enjoy variety and the freedom to express an opinion!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2008-04-04 23:15
Yikes, Mr Redwine; You compare Coltrane to Giuffre. A clarinet player who never went over the break because he was mainly a sax player. And his harmony was rather conservative. He should have played the A clarinet with the extension down to low C, the basset thing. Coltrane, his middle period before he became ill, Giant Steps, etc., look at that. So there is no simple "Coltrane." And why does nobody above consider Buddy DeFranco? Do some of you just wish to read music. How about jazz, and they write the best music.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-05 05:43
"as a jazz player, I may approach things a little differently"
But others who posted are also jazz players....
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-04-05 11:36
Clarnibass,
I'm not sure what you are implying by the ellipsis. Should all jazz players have the same opinion? I'm also a good legit player as well as a doubler and still do not care for Giuffre's work on clarinet or sax. As I said earlier "viva la difference."
HRL
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Author: redwine
Date: 2008-04-05 12:00
Hello Ken Mills,
I know it's controversial to criticize Coltrane. Please understand, I can appreciate his playing, but honestly, Giuffre's sound and music speak to my ears more so than Coltrane's. Giuffre excels at subtlety and intimacy, whereas Coltrane exels at harmonic complexity, technical fireworks, and full, loud sound. Coltrane was a great innovator, just given the choice, I would choose to listen to Giuffre over Coltrane.
It's not true that Mr. Giuffre did not go over the break, and, in fact, he was an accomplished clarinetist (I have a friend who studied clarinet with him). The music he heard in his head was just subtle and not "screaming jazz". He diverged from the mainstream, playing even "cooler" than the cool jazz scene.
Buddy DeFranco is great, certainly. I own all of his albums (real albums, not cds).
I'm not sure that I understand your final two sentences.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2008-04-05 13:20
Interviewer: "What is jazz?"
Louis Armstrong: "If you have to ask, you'll never know."
Some excellent late '50's JG with Jim Hall has been reissued, as well as his excellent clarinet album. Understated and elegant playing.
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2008-04-05 22:02
to redwine; I simply meant that one must be able to jam if one wants to be considered as socially adequate by people like me. Coltrane's playing was certainly athletic to please me, but it did not matter what key he was in: major, minor, or the blues (the blues key). So he could play along with anybody. When one is in a certain single key for any period, one should still be able to move the tonic up and down or create harmonic movement, nevertheless, to hold our interest. So there are laws to learn if you want to be a univerthal perthon!
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-04-06 08:47
This clip does make me wonder if Giuffre was unusual in using the clarinet in post swing jazz as an instrument on a par with the saxophone, without having to root that playing in earlier styles. My impression is that he was an accomplished clarinet player; rather than a sax player who happened to use a clarinet occasionally. A disc I have of his clarinet stuff is pretty impressive.
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The Clarinet Pages
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