 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-04-01 20:01
I've just gone back to my Bonade after a very long stint with a BG... I ALWAYS go back to it because it's the best! I just had a thought though - can it be improved on? I had my previous teacher bend it a certain way for me which improved it a lot, I've also seen you can get it from some places customized, either [gold/rose gold] plated or the rails sawn off.
Can anyone tell me if they've ever played on any of these, and if it was an improvement?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-04-01 20:45
Gold plating is an expensive scam. It costs the maker only a few pennies. Even with tgold over $1,000 an ounce, remember that an ounce of gold can be hammered out into a piece of gold foil big enough to cover a football field. It looks nice, but makes zero difference. The same goes for other fancy finishes.
The Search function will find lots of threads on Bonade ligature tweaks. Marcellus played at least for a while on an inverted Bonade with the vertical piece that holds the rails cut away between the upper and lower bands. I tried one but didn't like it, and it certainly makes the structure weaker.
The important tweak is what you already have -- the area outside the bands bent so they don't bind the edges of the reed, and the rails adjusted so they rest flat on the reed.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Keith P
Date: 2008-04-01 20:47
Morrigan,
I play on a Bonade gold plated inverted - my clarinet teacher bent the ligature to the shape of my mouthpiece, which enhanced the overall quality of the ligature. The gold plating produces a more mellow tone in my opinion. You can find the bonade ligature in several styles, including the inverted with the center cut out, and in gold plating from Muncy Winds.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-01 20:50
I did - all of the above
My preference was the Silver Plating to the regular plating and also to the Gold plating. Cutting out the center of the rails gave better reponse, and if you want to tinker further you could do a Hans Moennig idea which was to take leather off of a sax pad and glue in on the 4 contact points (as the center is cut out you have 4 contact points) which touch the reed.
Did that back in High School and still have the ligatures. I've tested them after College and found the same result that I still preferred the Silver Plating. Could have been all in my head that there was a difference among the silver and non silver, but there for sure was a difference in the Gold vs the Silver.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: MattBowmanSmith
Date: 2008-04-01 20:56
I play on a Bonade Silver plated regular ligatures for Bb and Eb clarinets. I prefer the silver platting to the nickel as it matches my clarinet, and it is also what many other clarinetist, amateur and professional, use. I purchased mine from muncy wind’s. They offer many designs and styles from the Bonade categories of ligatures.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-04-01 21:14
I have a number of "regular" ?chrome? plated [regs and inverts] Bonade ligs and like them for their "security". However for the playing- reed-holding purpose, I also like the Luybens, which do approximate [minimize] the pressure points onto the reed, and [to me] give a darker sound. Thots?. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-04-01 21:24
MattBowmanSmith wrote:
> I prefer the silver platting to the nickel ...
> and it is also what many other clarinetist,
> amateur and professional, use.
I'd like to see the the survey you took to come that conclusion...GBK
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-04-01 21:45
Phil Muncy seems to be the only one I'm aware of that's interested enough to carry a large enough selection of Bonades in a variety of plating and with the option of the center cut out. If Phil is shipping them properly reshaped, it would be a great service to the clarinet community.
The clarinetists that I've met both professional and student alike who have shown me their Bonade inverted ligatures aren't really getting out of them what they were intended to do. Bonade said in his patent that much better tones are produced by a reed that has broad, freely vibrating margins.
Irrespective of whether the plating makes a difference in sound quality (one would have to try multiples of each type of metal to make that determination anyway), one has to keep the bands of the ligature from touching the sides of the reed.
I have purchased dozens of Bonade inverted ligatures over the years that I've adjusted properly and have stashed away for mine, my wife's , and my student's use...just in case they go defunct...like the Morre reeds did. If you like the Bonades, perhaps it's a good idea to do the same. I've played one for 10 years and another for 20 years (it just broke). My wife has a relatively new one from this stash and her older ones lasted at least 20 years too.
There is no way to get around the fact that a properly adjusted Bonade is at the top of the heap amongst the plethora of ligatures available. I personally wonder whether those that prefer other ligatures ever gave the Bonade a proper chance since the probability that they were playing on an well adjusted one was nearly close to nil.
My preferences are in order: nickel, nickel with the center cut out, silver, silver w/center cut out, gold, gold w/center cut out. The sound seems to become duller, less full & deep as one gets to the gold end of the list. This is after having tried multiples of each at one time in separate trials over perhaps 3 decades.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
new model, new barrel
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-04-01 22:26
I recently got a Bonade non-inverted (gold plate) ligature from muncy and it was indeed bent to the correct shape. I played an inverted bonade for many years and then got caught up in all the hype of the other ligatures out there. I'm so happy to have come back to a Bonade. It really is (at least for me) the best lig on the planet.
Ken, the platings do make a diference if you know your sound enough to notice.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-04-02 00:08
Ryan -
Maybe I'll try gold-plated string instead of the black I've been using.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-04-02 06:42
"Maybe I'll try gold-plated string instead of the black I've been using."
Definitely! I used a white shoe lace for a while and it definitely had a brighter sound than a black one, which had a darker sound, very dark... It was a shoe lace from a sports shoe (I think what you call sneakers?) so of course I could also play faster ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
I used to think plating makes a difference but that was long ago before I actually had much experience comparing. I found that plating makes no difference (other than things like the feel of keys, etc). I also found that a properly adjusted Bonade ligature is excellent, but not better than the ligature I use.
Post Edited (2008-04-02 10:11)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-02 09:08
In my experience I have always felt that non-metal ligatures tended to deaden-soften-mute the sound. However, I never got used to putting the ligature on first and then sliding the reed under it, I always placed the reed and slipped the ligature over it. And split too many reeds doing it. As a result I gave up on metal ligatures years ago.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-04-02 16:28
Thanks for the input. Your mileage may vary at the end of the day I guess! I've ordered from Muncy two silver-plated Bonades, if only for the purpose of them apparently being more non-slip, one normal, one center cut. I shall post my results!
Gregory, I've asked you before and I ask again - why do you not sell adjusted Bonades? I'd do like you do and buy some and stash them away!
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2008-04-04 15:40
So how do you bend/adjust the ligature so it doesn't bind the sides of the reed. When you tighten it, doesn't it just pull the band back up against the corners of the reed again? Also, I have noticed that the "standard" (non-inverted) bonades don't seem to bind the sides of the reed as much, since the rails are slightly farther apart (depending on the thickness and width of the reed you're using). What do people think of the standard Bonade?
Finally, is there a rhetorical way to describe the sound difference between nickel, silver, and gold, or between the full-rail or cut-out? Muncy says gold produces a "Darker mellow sound," but for me, dark frequently means dull.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-04-04 15:55
I supported the gold plate in a previous post but I think I would like to expand on that.
More than likely, what ever plate is being used will not affect the sound that makes it to the back of the hall in my opinion. The reason I like the gold plate is because of the sound I hear in my head as I'm playing. I found the other plates to produce a buzz sometimes in my head where as the gold does not do that. All I hear is the reed and the mouthpiece. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but thats the best way I can describe it. It's all about what is most comfortable for me. I use the standard and have no problems with the shape of the ligature. I do have an inverted nikel cutout and there does seem to be a bit more response when it comes to articulation.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-04-04 16:15
>When you tighten it, doesn't it just pull the band back up against the >corners of the reed again?
-------------------
No. Unless you are tightening the ligature beyond how it was designed to be used.
Bonade showed Marcellus who showed me that the ligature was designed to be at it's best by tightening the ligature screws just to the point that resistance was felt - a secure fit but not clamping down in any way.
I certainly notice a difference in sound and response if I follow these straightforward instructions.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2008-04-04 20:03)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-04-04 16:25
My favorite ligature is the floating rail by Peter Spriggs. Unfortunately I cannot use it for orchestra gigs when I have to switch instrument fast as it does not hug the mouthpiece properly.
I never managed to get a Bonade straight and they seem too small for my Chadash Hill mouhtpiece. I guess I'll have to call Muncy to see what they sell.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2008-04-07 14:15)
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Author: doublej
Date: 2008-04-04 20:27
Sylvain,
I too liked using the spriggs ligature. What I did to make the change realistic is change the cork on the tenon of the mouthpiece to dental floss. You can get it where it does not wobble and is stable in the socket but comes out easy when pulled.
Jeff
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Author: brycon
Date: 2008-04-04 21:07
I had a teacher who was a Bonade student. He told me that Bonade intended his ligature to be placed rather far down on the reed (away from the tip of the mouthpiece). Has anyone experimented with the placement of the ligature and found a "sweet spot" so to say?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-04-04 21:31
Surely there must be a sweet spot but it probably varies depending on the mp, reed and the player's preferences. The post says "in other materials".
There is no technical reason that the Bonade lig couldn't be made from materials other than what it's made from now( what it is I do not know). Ostensibly the reason for making it from a different material would be to increase it's useful life. But that would probably cause players to tighten the screws even more and defeat the stated purpose of "just tight enough". I have the feeling that most limited experience players tighten the screws of all ligatures too much. Perhaps the real reason string ligatures have remained popular is their lack of screws which limits how tightly they can be affixed.
Bob Draznik
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-05 02:06
Dental floss sounds like a temporary fix. How do you keep it in place? Or do you have to replace it often??
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-04-05 03:39
Regarding the question of the front Bonades- I used them for a while and liked them very much. Harold Wright used them for years.
I do like the Peter Spriggs ligature a lot, which is like a high tech version of a Bonade. It responds well and reeds work very well with it. I don't have any problem using it on orchestral gigs. I make sure my cork is well greased. ( I like the Doctor's products) I also make sure to grip the mouthpiece well and not put too much pressure on the ligature.
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Author: doublej
Date: 2008-04-07 13:10
David,
Eventually the floss compresses. However, all it takes is a couple of wraps in the middle of the tenon to get a good compression back. I used to just keep a small container of it with me. the reason I went that way was the mortises on the two barrels were a little different and I just could not get cork to work fast enough.
Jeff
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2008-04-08 15:45
Did someone answer my question, "So how do you bend/adjust the ligature so it doesn't bind the sides of the reed?" I can't find it. Thanks for the other help, personally I think I'm just going to order like $600 worth of ligatures from Muncy and geek out with some colleagues of mine until I find the best one. I'll let you guys know what my experimenting yields!
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Author: doublej
Date: 2008-04-09 15:10
david,
Yeah the floss holds up better and is actually quite durable. Plus it is easy to change if it gets a little nasty. Oh yeah and it is cheap!
I was wondering if someone would post a picture of a properly adjusted bonade. I get the idea but picture would be really helpful to confirm what I have done in the past.
Jeff
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-04-09 18:08
Regarding the adjustment to the ligatures- my understanding was always that it was necessary to bend the side bands so that they are not touching the sides of the reed. You want to have only the rails applying pressure to the reed. I have also know of people suggest doing a light filing of the rails to ensure that they are completely flat.
Post Edited (2008-04-09 20:54)
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-04-15 20:29
Okay so I got my Bonades from Muncy's today, and the results are in!
I ordered one standard inverted in silver, and one standard inverted silver with middle cut out.
Due to them not being adjusted properly, my old one was far better and I initially thought I'd wasted my money. Both silver-plated ligatures seemed to allow for smoother sounds over the two breaks, so I thought if I could adjust them properly they could be great.
I totally screwed up the first one... I'm not sure WHAT shape it's supposed to be... But the cut-out one, I seemed to get right and it is indeed better than my old nickel one now.
It seems to create a more silvery (ha!) tone, feels more secure and makes jumps smoother. Also, a considerably brighter sound with good grounding and plenty of upper partials; a nice ringing, ping-y tone!
Some tips on adjusting. Needle-nose pliers not necessary. I bought a pair on my way home and they make adjustment a little TOO precise. The cut-out ligature is SO fragile and easily bent, I'm keeping it in it's case when not in use. I used my fingers and nails to slowly but surely bend it into place. The space between the rails is easily bent too, so adjusting that, thereby adjusting the width between the rails, makes a huge difference as well.
I'm thinking of ordering some more so that I can experiment, there seems to be SO many variables. I was also wondering, does anyone think fairly soft plastic screws would help with tightening?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-04-15 20:32
I'd bet that the fairly soft plastic screws would strip pretty quickly. Worth a try though if you can find em to fit.
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Author: inacin
Date: 2008-04-16 16:56
By the way, here´s a question from one user of Vandoren Optimum with plate #1 (a copy of the Bonade main idea) considering to buy a Bonade: Regular or inverted?
C/ Javalambre 21, 2 D
44003 Teruel
Spain
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2008-04-17 16:47
I've never tried regular... Which means you should play the inverted LOL
Seriously though, the inverted seems to be the most popular. Make sure you don't just play it as it comes and then dismiss it. To really get a good picture, find someone who can adjust it for you, or experiment yourself. As I've said in this thread, after experimenting, these are extremely flexible ligatures!
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2008-04-18 17:48
I have attached a drawing as I see the adjustment. The top image is with the ligature rounded out so the sides don't touch the reed (I can only get my ligature fractions of a mm away), and the bottom image shows how the ligature comes in more of a teardrop shape so the sides mash the corners of the reed.
Someone also pointed out an interesting difference between the standard and inverted Bonade, which I've attached another drawing of. With the standard, the back of the ligature lies flush with the top of the mouthpiece. However, because of the screws, on the inverted, the ligature has this angle that creates weird contact points with the top of the mouthpiece. The person who pointed this out to me thought this made a difference in a negative way. I'm not convinced, but I thought it was an interesting point.
Ed: I can't see my attachments, can anyone else?
Post Edited (2008-04-18 17:52)
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