 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2008-03-30 18:37
I'm pretty sure clarinet wood is aged for a few years before being cut and lathed into shape. Is it also aged further after the tubes are formed, but before finishing?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-03-31 01:52
Older clarinets were made of Grenadilla wood that was aged for long periods of time (in some cases 20 + years) by air drying - billets stacked and covered from the weather, sometimes in warehouses. Recently wood has been kiln dried or heated in a vacuum to speed water removal and stabilizing the wood. Smaller billets are then cut from the larger ones approximating the size of joints, or bells. These smaller billets may or may not be further aged or processed but when machined they are usually taken completely through the process to completion of the finished joint, barrel, or bell. Different manufacturers use different methods. The controversey is whether newer methods produce instruments that are more prone to cracking because of the different drying techniques?
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2008-03-31 04:43
I'm mostly interested in how Selmer would have been doing it in the early 20th century. I'm trying to figure out why the Selmer logo changed from the old oval to the modern wreath in 1926 on mouthpieces, saxes and metal clarinets, while wood clarinets maintained the oval logo into the early 1930's.
My current theory is that the wood was machined part way, marked with the Selmer mark, and then aged for about five more years before being finished.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-03-31 07:08
Molloy wrote:
> My current theory is that the wood was machined part way,
> marked with the Selmer mark, and then aged for about five more
> years before being finished.
Hmm. If I were a manufacturer of quality instruments, the logo and serial number would probably one of the very last steps in production...
--
Ben
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-03-31 12:23
tictactux -
Where I work, we produce items with serial numbers and they get these as early as possible. Things happen, and some serial numbers never get shipped - but everything gets a serial number as soon as it begins to look like a product. It helps track stuff through the production process. So it's conceivable that you'd mark the upper and lower joints with a serial number as soon as you'd turned the OD. The logo, however, I'd expect to go on last to avoid damage.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-03-31 15:50
Chris P
Thanks for posting the photos of Howarth's production techniques.
Question:
Most wood drying set-ups I've seen "sticker" the wood: stack it on thin sticks to allow air to circulate around the "boards" and shorten the time necessary to equilibrate its moisture with the environment. Why do you keep your billets stacked in such a way as to discourage air flow?
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-03-31 16:07
The square billets have the ends sealed with wax from the suppliers, but these are removed when the joints are cut to length during the initial turning.
The shelves are open at both ends (the ends of the joints aren't tight against a wall, so air can circulate) and with the pilot holes through the joints the air can flow through them. The wood room is also unheated.
And stacking on racks (boards with dowels in them) means one end of the joint is closed as it's stood up on one end on the rack so air circulation is restricted within the joint, and the racks will take up much more room than laying the billets and joints down on shelves. Once the billets are turned into cylinders (and have a pilot hole), air can circulate through the joint and the gaps in between each joint which will facilitate drying.
Though the almost finished joints are stood on racks (as you can't stack joints once the outside is the finished shape), five instruments per rack to keep the joints in order as they have been sorted, matched for colour and allocated to become an instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-03-31 16:42)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-03-31 17:52
Though on metal Selmer instruments and mouthpieces the logos were engraved (which is much easier to alter the design) and the clarinet logos were stamped on with a heated stamp, so it may have been possible that there was a delay in having the logo stamps delivered, or a problem with the manufacture of the stamps.
Though it has been said they changed to the circular wreath logo as the oval one looked too much like the Buffet logo.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2008-03-31 22:55
A maker of handmade professional clarinets I worked with for some years stores the wood for many years before the intial roughing out shaping and then rests it for several years between each of the intermediate stages. This of course is very costly in terms of the capital tied up in the existing materials and craft hours expended too date.
I can't imagine that today the accountants would allow this level of perfection to exist in the mass production makers except possibly for their very top line models. Prewar manufacture was much more traditionally based but B&H moved from traditional aging to forced kiln drying soon after WW2.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-03-31 23:25
None of the UK-built Howarth instruments use kiln dried wood.
Earlier on my mind was working overtime after thinking about the manner in which wood is stored in the drying room, but I thought of a drying room set-up where the joints rest once they're in cylinder form with a pilot hole through them.
It was inspired by that bit in the film 'Coma' where all those comatosed people are suspended by wires
The joints are suspended horizontally on two string hoops (made from braded nylon string), and each joint suspended horizontally from each other (each joint connected by string hoops).
Each joint has two shallow grooves turned at the extreme ends to prevent the string hoops sliding off, so it looks like a rope ladder with the joints as rungs, and the top of each 'ladder' is suspended from two wheels (grooved to take the string hoop) connected to an axle which rotates v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y, making each joint in each 'ladder' rotate so they air evenly all round the circumference of the joints.
A bit far fetched, but possible if you want to take wood seasoning to an extreme. But it could be interesting when the joints warp as they dry.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-04-01 07:27
Chris P wrote:
> Each joint has two shallow grooves turned at the extreme ends
> to prevent the string hoops sliding off, so it looks like a
> rope ladder with the joints as rungs, and the top of each
> 'ladder' is suspended from two wheels (grooved to take the
> string hoop) connected to an axle which rotates v-e-r-y
> s-l-o-w-l-y, making each joint in each 'ladder' rotate so they
> air evenly all round the circumference of the joints.
That's what chicken grillers do here, too. Although, they don't call it seasoning.
IMO, it'd be enough if a skilled craftsperson/virgin maiden/retired concert clarinetist (take your pick) went through the drying room each day and rotated the billets a bit (and spoke to them). Like the champagne folks.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-01 09:32
"IMO, it'd be enough if a skilled craftsperson/virgin maiden/retired concert clarinetist (take your pick) went through the drying room each day and rotated the billets a bit (and spoke to them). Like the champagne folks."
But that's where electric motors would differ - they'll do the job more reliably (provided there isn't a powercut) and without complaining about what they're reduced to having to do.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-04-01 10:58
Chris P wrote:
> But that's where electric motors would differ - they'll do the
> job more reliably (provided there isn't a powercut) and without
> complaining about what they're reduced to having to do.
There is this common misconception about "rewarding" jobs:
In a company where I did an internship there was a steam press that converted iron cylinders into a pan-shaped thing. A person was standing in front of that machine, shoving cylinder after cylinder into that machine.
One of my colleagues asked "wouldn't it be more reliable to have a machine do that, and besides, wouldn't this guy be happy to get a more inspiring job?"
And the supervisor answered that they did an analysis about the whole setup, and first it'd take five years before ROI, plus a machine wasn't half as versatile, and besides, this guy had been interviewed and he said he was happy doing that - just that. (And it was likely that he'd simply lost his job if a machine took over, given this person's skills and abilities). So, all things considered, they found it counter-productive to replace that person with a machine. (I should add that this company didn't just have the only target of making money, they felt some social obligation too)
Hey, before being unemployed I'd rather turn wood billets, reduced or not. Can't be much more tedious or uninspiring than being data entry clerk or sitting at the checkout at Woolworth's. (don't get me wrong, nothing against these jobs - I just wouldn't take them if I had a choice)
To go back to the subject - do you think a motorised rope would be able to check for premature damages or warpage, and relegated bad billets to barrel making or the grenadilla dust section?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-04-01 11:27
Most serious flaws can be spotted when the square billet is turned into a cylinder (decay, larva damage or splits), but even so there are other flaws that only show up when the joint is then turned into it's final shape - either on the surface, where the toneholes are drilled or in the bore.
Surface imperfections to a certain extent can be filled or have a tonehole go through them, ones found in tonehole bedplaces can be filled before finishing and imperfections found in the bore will mean the joint gets scrapped as that's an area where water can settle. But there can be imperfections that only show up after years of playing, like pot holes in a road due to an underlying weakness.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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