 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Herb Huey
Date: 2002-05-03 00:00
I may have hit on a touchy subject.
I have a Selmer Series 10G with severe dimensional problems.
The barrel is so loose on the upper joint that I can hold the barrel & the rest of the clarinet will fall off. I have loose rings on the barrel & the bell.
The problem has gotten worse over the years especially after moving moving to So. California.
It is getting time for an overhaul & I got interested in Larry Naylor's oil immersion. He touts that it helps dimensional stability & horn resonance.
However, I looked at THomas Ohme's site & he mentions that the biggest reason clarinets crack is due to overoiling yet he also goes through a 3-day oiling routine.
Sherman Friedland seems to believe less is better.
So who is right? I like to hear from The Doctor.
BTW who does good repairs?
Herb
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-05-03 01:46
Well I guess that I will jump into the troubled waters of oiling again. I will let Larry Naylor speak to his own oil immersion process but I have had good success with my forumulation of oils at swelling the wood of "dryed out" clarinets to the point that loose rings fit snugly again. With the experimental setup (described in an earlier post) using non-standard oil & chemical formulations, my record is now 8 out of 10 horns whose owners thought (and this is a subjective assessment) returned to their specifications (tone and tenon rings fitting). I have done some measurements with a precise digital micrometer and these indicate swelling and differences in dimensional measurements. The experiment is not complete because of the still small numbers but results to date are encouraging (Note - I do not do this commercially but manipulate variables to develop better oil formulations). I would recommend that a qualified repair person perform the restoration of severely dried out horns because the duration of oiling is an experience based art.
The less is better axiom still holds IMHO for routine oiling of the instrument. Over oiling is not good but, depending on you use and environmental conditions, regular oiling I feel is justified.
The pros and cons of frequent direct application of oil versus total immersion depend on who you ask. At the factory the wood is immersed in plant derived oil for long periods of time prior to, and sometimes during, manufacturing and milling procedures. Oil, and moisture content are lost over time due to environmental and physical (running a swab through the bore) conditions. Both the oil content and moisture must be replaced to the proper extent. Plant derived oils aid in this process because they have a certain water binding ability.
This is a start - let the slings and arrows fly!
The Doctor
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-05-03 03:14
L. Omar Henderson wrote:
> This is a start - let the slings and arrows fly!
Ah, but then we'd have to allow outrageous misfortune.
'Cry, "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war.' - more fun than slings and arrows ...
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Author: William
Date: 2002-05-03 04:28
My solution would simply be to purchase a new clarinet that plays well and sell the 10G either in the Classifieds right here on Sneez, or eBay, and let someone else deal with restoration. My playing days have grown too short to deal with the potential for remaining and nagging accoustical and physical problems. For me to sound good, I need my clarinet to work FOR me, not against. Besides, buying something new is always exciting as long as it doesn't cause the Dow average to dip. Just my feeling--sorry, no help with the oil issue--maybe OPEC!! Good Clarineting!!!
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Author: Gerry
Date: 2002-05-03 14:05
How can I purchase "Oil" from the Doctor with instructions for use.
Thanks,
Gerry.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-05-03 15:29
Try contacting some of the sponsors of this site for consultation.
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Author: terry
Date: 2002-05-05 01:41
Had my 1953 Buffet oil immersed with full rebuild.
Excellent results. Tone and intonation become very smooth.
check it out, http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-05-05 04:53
But how dod you know whether the tone improvement was the rebuild or the oil. This is entirely anecdotal.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-05-05 11:04
Gordon is indeed correct and this is why it is so difficult to prove the efficacy of oiling wood because of the number of variables involved. I can prove certain physical parameters change upon oiling (the circumference, length, depth, mapping key hole roundness, etc.) but quantitating proper adjustment of pads and keywork is not possible. Perhaps there will be enough anechdotal data to one day determine the proper parameters to measure or the measurement tools will improve (possibly algorithms to evaluate spectral analysis of sound,etc.)
The Doctor
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Author: terry
Date: 2002-05-05 13:22
Mark Charette requested that I indicate how I paid for my rebuild/immersion. I bartered the clarinet work for a web site for Naylor's Woodwind Repair. http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com.
Mr. Naylor is a Sponsor of Sneezy. Our "business" relationship has
long since been terminated, and a new web designer/master has taken
over. New web site also. If I ever get to his shop in Colorado,
I hope to have lunch with him.
What is important is that I am delighted in the immersion/rebuild.
More than a year, and no problems.
hopefully, this will serve the interests of full disclosure.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-03-14 06:23
To bring back an old thread (which I do sometimes), I would like to talk about my experience with Bore Doctor and heavy oiling.
I have an old set of Buffets from the 1980s that have problems with intonation and tone quality in general and I had been told by a number of people (and have measured myself) that the bore is rather oblong. I was ready to start selling stuff to try and save money to get a different set. But as a last shot "can't lose much just to try" kind of effort to save these clarinets.
I wanted to try oil immersion, but I have to say that I didn't have the money to buy that much of Bore Doctor (especially for something that might not work), so I did the next best thing- in my mind, at least. After removing all the keys and register tube and thumb tube, I covered the top joint in a coating of oil about 3-4 times/day for 4 days. I removed the excess after 4 days- there was much less excess than I had put in. Either it evaporated or it went into the wood. But I actually KNOW that it went into the wood- I had a little accident and spilled about half the bottle into the metal tray that I place the oiled clarinets in. Luckily for me the tray has a lip and I was able to get most of it back into the bottle. Anyway there was some left on the surface of the tray and had not evaporated from 3 days sitting on the tray- the oil MUST have gone into the wood.
As for the clarinets- the A was the worse of the set, but now... the oblongality is much less than before. Not gone, but much much less. I can clearly see exactly where the change in the bore from one taper to another is. I could see it before, but it was a fuzzy line area where the light didn't reflect well, but now it is a thin circle- almost as clean as on new clarinets.
How does it play? That is the real question, as always. It is greatly improved, no question. The A feels almost like a new clarinet. When I bought it, it was 18 years old so I don't know what it was like when it was new, but it plays much better now than before the oiling. Clearer, easier response, and improved control of pitch by miles! Are the 12ths fixed? No, but the focus of each note is better and it sounds like a clarinet
In this oiling job, I didn't do any repair or even change a single pad or even reseat them (except for the register key). I just oiled and put the keys back.
This is the greatest thing I have used, it has put off the urgency to buy a new clarinet for a while. Three months ago I had given up the idea that any mouthpiece or barrel can help this "blown out" A and I had been thinking about how to swing some money around and sell this or that to buy a new clarinet. I don't need to now.
Big Thank You to Dr. Henderson
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-03-14 15:03
I have an old ebay clarinet that I am experimenting with/trying to learn repair etc... just as a fun thing to tinker with. ( Relax, I wouldn't dream of doing my own major work on my Yamaha CS). Anyway, the old girl is probably 80-110 years old and had obviously been neglected for decades- no case, encrusted with tobacco residue and filth. Everything is preposterously loose (we're talking a good 1/8" of play in the fitment of the bell flare ring) on it so I can't imagine critical dimensions are good enough for it to play correctly if it were repadded and reassembled. So far, I cleaned and then immersed all of the components in sweet almond oil for several weeks, as well as humidifying the crap out of them. I noticed no changes in the fitment of the rings/tightness of the posts, etc... whatsoever, unfortunately. It didn't crack (any more than it is) or explode or anything. Given this, I see little danger that I could overoil (not even sure what symptoms of this might be) accidently. Next step may be to buy a large quantity of Bore Doctor...? Can it be that much of an improvement over what I have used already I wonder?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-03-14 15:30
modernicus- a 1/8" of space is exceptional, and once I examined a 160 year old clarinet. It sounds to me like the wood was not aged nearly enough before production.
Humidifying should bring the loose stuff back to normal.
Post Edited (2008-03-14 15:40)
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-03-14 16:54
"It sounds to me like the wood was not aged nearly enough before production."
This might be a possibility. There were ancient, brittle chunks of cork wedging the socket rings on, and the bottom-most post on the lower joint I found the threads were wrapped with string/thread to try to keep it from moving as much. This indicates to me the shrinkage happened many years ago. This clarinet appears to me to be a high quality instrument (Stamped Carl Fischer "Excelsior"- I think its a Buffet, but I'm not an expert), so it seems strange that they would have made it from unseasoned wood, though- or would it?
Post Edited (2008-03-14 19:37)
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-03-19 21:14
Whoops, I meant 1/16"- 1/8" would ineed be huge! I just pulled the clarinet out to look at it again- probably has been humidifying for several months now- and good news, it looks like the gap is down to about 1/32" now! I also have applied the rest of The Doctor's Bore I had to all the joints, and it soaked it up like a sponge, even though they had previously soaked in Sweet Almond oil, so another order to the good doctor soon may be in order. I had an interesting thought, what would happen if you left a clarinet sitting on top, of, oh, say, a radiator for a few decades?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-03-20 00:34
All elements of the wood that evaporate at that temperature would have evaporated. I expect that would be more than just the oil and water content. Why? Did they do that?
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-03-20 01:20
No, just theorizing how it could have dried/shrunk so much- it's the worst at the bottom. The clarinet had no case and was covered with tobacco grime, etc..., so I'M assuming it was sitting somewhere assembled standing up. It came from the New England area, where they probably have many old buildings with steam heating systems and radiators around still. Just a wild guess.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-03-20 16:47
From what i've heard its not a good choice. The oil will seep out for weeks from every point on the instrument. your tenon rings will fall off and be covered in nasty grime. I suggest a really good overhall.
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