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 Articulation Speed Limits
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2008-03-07 18:41

The "Technique" article in the Clarinet Magazine got me thinking about articulation at fast speed.

We all know that great masters can tongue each 32nd note at 240bpm and such things - question is: does the audience hear a difference between normally articulated and legato notes at this speed?

There's inevitably an echo in a concert hall which interferes with the articulation, especially at higher speeds, and I listened to a number of live and studio recordings with fast (solo) passages, and I couldn't necessarily tell a clean legato from a clean "normal", or even a clean staccato at higher speeds.

So, when I encounter three measures worth of /16 or /32 notes, concentrate on proper timing (fingers!) or proper articulation as well? Would anyone honestly notice a difference under real-life conditions?

(I am not challenging the composer's intention when he put staccato marks over those 32nds - if you can play that, good for you)

--
Ben

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2008-03-08 16:26

The intent of the music must dictate the final outome. If you listen to the excerpt of Semeramis provided in the Osborne material cited by Sylvain, the articulation is clear and yet the notes are full. Just because someone CAN sound like automatic gunfire doesn't necessarily mean that they SHOULD.



............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: rtmyth 
Date:   2008-03-08 16:38

This separates the top professionals from most of us. Why? Because it is difficult, very difficult. One mpc maker keeps a selection of mpcs for his clients to try. He then starts with the mpc which produces the best articulation for the client and modifies it as desired.

richard smith

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: elmo lewis 
Date:   2008-03-09 17:04

I went to a Clarinetfest and heard a guy who specializes in rapid tonguing. F rom my seat in the auditorium I couldn't hear any notes-it sounded like a really bad edgy sound with a buzz in it.

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2008-03-09 18:30

Then there is the question what constitutes single tonguing? Assuming that any syllable used such as ta ka, ta Ga, etc. Is certainly double, would the side to side or up and down be considered double, or single?

http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com


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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: Ed Palanker 
Date:   2008-03-09 23:18

I think the short answer is the particular passage in the orchestra. There are times that it just can't be done by the majority of orchestra players. If those cases we tongue two and articulate two. There are even times when we just slur it all because it's completely unplayable the way it's written. We're doing a piece in a few weeks that has sextuplet staccato at 168 to the quarter note. I don't know about you but not many of us can tongue that fast. In those cases we simply "fake" it. Let the flutes tongue it and hide behind them. When it's that fast no one usually makes a fuss about it, even the conductor. If it's a solo passage you do what ever you can do to get by. At some point it goes so fast you can't really tell anyway. A professional has to tongue fast but there's a limit to what's expected. If you listen to some of the old recordings of some of the fast staccato passages you can sometimes hear a few slurs thrown in and no one really cared as long as it was clean and musical. Beethoven 4th and 6th are good examples. ESP

www.peabody.jhu.edu/457

ESP eddiesclarinet.com

Post Edited (2008-03-10 01:33)

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: Bob Phillips 
Date:   2008-03-10 17:06

Ed, by the way,
Thanks for the link to your very useful and informative web page.

Bob Phillips

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2008-03-10 17:37

Ben, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking  :) but the short answer is you can't play what you can't play. You also can't play better than your best with the most practice. So if you are "tied" to a position (for example playing in an orchestra) then you play what you need to play the best you can. I guess you (i.e. anyone) can quit, or maybe they fire you, but that's completely different issue. I think the person who chooses what music to play needs to consider everything to decide if it is a good choice to play the specific piece they chose.

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2008-03-10 19:26

Sometimes with adrenaline you can play better than your best practice.

Strange things can happen in performance.

http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com


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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: tictactux 2017
Date:   2008-03-10 20:10

> Ben, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking :) but the short answer is you
> can't play what you can't play. You also can't play better than your best with
> the most practice.

Yes, that sounds logical. :)

What I was getting after was "from what speed is the additional effort of fingering AND tonguing a mere waste of energy?" - because no one would hear the difference anyway. (fingering OR tonguing is not quite the same problem)

I quickly learned the mp3 approach - skip what's fast, faint and forlorn (in all the brass ff) and concentrate on passages where we're actually heard. The venues we're usually playing in suggest that the discernible limit is somewhere between 1/16 and 1/32, depending on tempo and ambient orchestration. Everything faster just melts into some kind of vibrato or mush. (hey, we're seven or eight clarinets, all playing the same rhythm)

--
Ben

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2008-03-11 04:41

"from what speed is the additional effort of fingering AND tonguing a mere waste of energy?"

I think that's something you need to decide on the specific context.

David, I thought I was clear but in case I wasn't, I meant that you can't practice mroe than you can, and you can't play better than the best you can. That includes everything that allows you to play your best no matter what it is.

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: mnorswor 
Date:   2008-03-11 13:20

Ed, completely agree with you. My question to you is what you might do in the Bartered Bride Overture?



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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2008-03-11 13:35

Single tongue bartered bride, no added slurs.

http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com


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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2008-03-11 13:40

Btw mike. I know you asked Ed, but want to add that an orchestra I played with the oboist slurred the last 4 notes of the repeat of the opening, and on the recording it sticks out big time.

http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com


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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: Bassie 
Date:   2008-03-12 09:33

So I've just taken on an arrangement of Czardas for Bb soloist with brass band accompaniment. All the semiquaver (=1/16) runs are marked staccato in the part. Well, I can't actually play them true staccato. But I notice in rehearsals yesterday that it actually sounds quite punchy with just the lightest separation of the notes. Also: different intervals require different amounts of work to separate them properly, and to make all those up-and-down arpeggios at all musically interesting requires a certain amount of phrasing. So I'm not actually all that cut up that I can't play it like a machine gun - I'm not sure it would actually sound better (though it might sound showier).

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: Tobin 
Date:   2008-03-12 11:02

I think Ben is attempting to discriminate between what can be done and what can be perceived by the audience.

To that end I would say that (of course) concert setting, program choices, and ensemble quality all impact the outcome.

If, Ben, you had a section of Morales', or Frosts, or Druckers, etc,... you would be able to hear the difference between extremely fast legato, marcato, and staccato of all (most?) lengths.

But if you have one/two individuals who cannot execute as well as the rest then you would be "muddying the waters" quite a bit.

James

(...of course most groups don't have a section of Morales', Frosts,...in our ensembles)

Gnothi Seauton

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 Re: Articulation Speed Limits
Author: William 
Date:   2008-03-12 13:19

I think it should be noted that language of articulation markings is not "spoken" the same among composeres and often it is up to the performer or conductor to decide on exact style within the perceived context of the music.

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