 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2008-03-04 00:01
I have my All State Audition this Saturday. I am required to learn Rose Caprice #4(pg 84-85 Artistic Studies) This piece has alot of areas where notes repeat themselves in octaves but for example, low A is noted as flat, throat A has no marking, and then A above the staff is noted as flat too. I have a recording and I believe the lady (Dr. Shannon Thompson) plays the flats through out the octaves. The recording is here http://fpamediaserver.wcu.edu/~alldistrict/MP3/09.mp3
Edit: I left my question out.
If an accidental is in one octave should it apply to all of the notes? Or apply to the ones marked?
Post Edited (2008-03-04 00:01)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-04 00:09
If an accidental is in one octave should it apply to all of the notes? Or apply to the ones marked?
YES. Accidentals carry through octaves.
James
PS...there are some modern works/composers who (for some reason) do not adhere to this rule.
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-03-04 00:51
"YES. Accidentals carry through octaves"
Accidentals DO NOT carry through different octaves in classical music. Sometimes they do in modern music but even that is rare.
I don't know about this etude. Maybe there is a misprint because it sounds like the troat A should have a flat but as a general rule, accidentals do not carry into different octaves. They do carry through a bar if it's the same octave but not into different octaves.
Post Edited (2008-03-04 01:03)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-04 01:27
I looked it up and Ryan you are right!
Maybe that explains all my wrong notes?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-03-04 01:46
SVClarinet09 wrote:
>I am required to learn Rose Caprice #4(pg 84-85 Artistic Studies)
If you are using the Hite edition, there are 2 note corrections which David Hite missed, and should be made.
- In measure 11, the low G trill should be to Ab (not A)
- In measure 62, on the second beat, change the written f to e.
...GBK
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-03-04 01:52
Yes, Ryan is right. The problem is that not everyone follows the rules so you will occasionally find a publisher or composer that does not do it correctly. When we get modern music parts in the BSO there are often instructions that the accidental does, or does not, carry over the measure or the octaves. It’s rare though to carry over form one octave to another, unless it’s a mistake. When playing conventional music, use your ear and common sense. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-03-04 12:37
I'm an amateur composer. This subject comes up often on a composers' bulleting board at sibeliusmusic.com. It's true that not all composers follow the same rules. Not all books on orchestration give the same rules, either. Some say unequivocally that the accidentals apply across all the octaves while others say, equally unequivocally, that they don't. For those of us composing today, I think we need to write in cautionary accidentals, even though they clutter up the score. That way, there's no room for doubt.
When I've got the clarinet in my mouth, I try to follow Ed Palanker's good advice:
>When playing conventional music, use your ear and common sense.>
--but my ear's sometimes wrong, and (having tripped over a curb on Sunday, through pure inattention, with the result that my right wrist is now either badly sprained or broken and I'm typing with one hand) I don't quite trust my common sense, if any, either!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-03-04 12:55
I learned that an accidental is valid for exactly the one line or space it is written in, until the end of the measure or cancelled by a natural. Only exception is when it is carried over to the next bar with a tie, but only for that one tied note. Wikipedia agrees with me.
Today's arrangers (dunno much about composers) are indeed friendly and put courtesy accidentals in, even after a key change etc.
But I'll go over my sheets anyway and put a blue circle around all flattened (by key or accidental) note heads and a green circle around the sharpened ones. "Cautionaries for slow musicians", I know... ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
If in the end my score has more colours than black and white, I consider it "hairy".
--
Ben
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-03-04 21:21
There is a nice (and free) program for typesetting musical scores called "Lilypond" (www.lilypond.org). It basically takes a text file description of the notes, articulation markings, etc. and figures out where to place the symbols on the staff. Part of what it does is to figure out whether it is necessary to put an accidental in front of a note, given the key signature, other accidentals, etc.
The reason I bring this up is that it gives you a few different options regarding accidentals. The default option is the "traditional" option of making accidentals only carry through the same octave. There is also a "modern" option in which accidentals carry through to different octaves. There is yet a third option which is a hybrid between the two, which is to print the accidentals "in other octaves," but with parentheses around them (as courtesy accidentals).
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2008-03-04 21:53
"Modern" is a poor choice of words for that.
Having them parenthesized in other octaves seems completely counterintuitive to me... at that point, why not just have regular accidentals? Unless it's talking about, for example, an F# in one octave matched by a parenthesized natural on an F natural in another octave, in which case it makes sense.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-03-05 12:39
"Accidentals DO NOT carry through different octaves in classical music."
That's the way I learned it too.
Bob Draznik
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2008-03-05 12:54
-- "There is a nice (and free) program for typesetting musical scores called "Lilypond" (www.lilypond.org). " --
I once had a go using this software and found it incredibly hard to learn. That was years ago. I wouldn't mind having another go.
Do you know any easy to follow tutorials, or example templates that could be customised?
Steve
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Author: Avie
Date: 2008-03-05 15:26
In Rose 32, etude #31, Im not sure what note should be played when:
Two flats (bb) are in front of a Bb (3rd line Bb) ?
and one natural and one flat in front of a Bb (3rd line Bb) ? Thank you.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-03-05 15:34
Avie wrote:
> In Rose 32, etude #31, Im not sure what note should be played
> when:
>
> Two flats (bb) are in front of a Bb (3rd line Bb) ?
>
> and one natural and one flat in front of a Bb (3rd line Bb) ?
> Thank you.
You are referring to measure #7:
For the Bbb (double flat), play an A.
For the next B with a natural and a flat in front of it, play a Bb.
...GBK
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2008-03-05 15:52
Greetings,
It has been my understanding that accidentals carry through the measure regardless of the octave, unless canceled... Isn't this correct, or did I learn it all wrong...
Allan
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Author: Avie
Date: 2008-03-05 15:55
Thanks GBK. I appreciate your help. The whole etude is a real challenge to me.........Avie
As you know, the question about accidentals being in differant octaves, I can recall quite a lengthly discussion which could be found in the BB search forum.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-05 15:59
It appears, Allan, as if you and I were led astray at an early age.
Accidentals do not carry through octaves, just through measures where initially designated.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-03-05 16:03
As Ed and others have noted above, the rules for when accidentals carry (within a measure - different octaves) can be ambiguous. It's arguable that even the standard rules are ambiguous in the presence of multiple voices, clef changes, and perhaps even multiple octave changes. In addition, many 20th-century scores often contain a statement to the effect that accidentals apply only to the notes they precede.
The rules for accidentals are often extremely difficult to tell in highly chromatic music, so in borderline cases like that you would have to use personal judgement in your interpretation...GBK
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-03-05 20:41
The only documentation and tutorial info I know of for Lilypond is on the website. It does seem to be improved over previous documentation, though. Also, there are plenty of good examples of "real music" in Lilypond at http://www.mutopiaproject.org.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-03-05 21:13
I agree that the name "modern" for that option is a bit misleading. I would have probably called it something else.
Besides, for "modern" atonal music, where every pitch essentially stands on its own without regard for key, I think the "traditional" rule actually makes more sense from a theoretical standpoint. It also generally means fewer things for the performer to have to think about (at least I think so--there's probably a good argument the other way as well).
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2008-03-05 21:21
I find it varies considerably by country as well...the few Spanish pieces I own all seem to employ the rule that an accidental in one octave applies in all of them. Can any of our Spanish readers tell me if this just coincidence or if it's standard practice?
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