 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: timg
Date: 2008-03-01 15:32
It seems there's a large variety of mistakes one can make with tonguing. Plenty of them have been discussed here before, but I'm still wondering if I'm getting it right.
Up 'till now I've been keeping my tongue fairly low and curled backwards. To stop the reed, I uncurl my tongue slightly, so that the underside of the tip touches the tip of the reed and mouthpiece.
This week somebody explained it to me differently: that the tongue should be higher in the mouth, and the upper side of the tip touches the reed. I've been trying this for a few days, and although it's hard to break the old habit, the new style does feel more natural. It feels like saying "tut-tut", except that the tongue touches the reed instead of the roof of the mouth.
The problem is that with the tongue high I'm finding it much harder to reach the highest clarion notes, B (thumb and index finger) and C (thumb only).
Does anybody have any hints? What is the correct tongue shape and movement? I'm without a teacher for a few weeks, but I'd still like to use the time productively and avoid reinforcing any bad habits.
thanks,
-Tim
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-03-01 15:41
You're right! The position of the back of your tongue is critical to "voicing" the high notes.
I'm working on a compromise with my teacher. I can't get "tip-to-tip". The compromise is to get the tip of my tongue as close to the tip as I can, and still keep the back of my tongue high in my mouths --and stable through the range of the clarinet.
Bob Phillips
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Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-03-01 23:25
What I've had to do as per my lesson teacher for notes like that is to not even tongue the notes. I do more of an air tongue, like a "he", when having to articulate them. The notes respond better and quicker. Sometimes I have to additionally push the jaw forward to get them to speak.
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Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-02 15:55
I was hoping someone else would jump on this one...but here we go...
BandieSF, I don't believe this is good advice to have been given or to give to someone else. Breath segmentation is not a substitute for articulation.
The problems that you are describing, and your solution to them, indicate to me (through the computer) that either your embouchure isn't allowing the reed to vibrate fully AND/OR there is a defect in your tonguing that could be repaired.
Because you can get the notes to speak without a subtone/grunt when you don't tongue I would guess that the problem really lies in your tongue, not the embouchure.
TimG,
The higher we go on the clarinet the more delicate the notes become. You might try many things to alleviate the problem, but here are three that could benefit you and enhance your articulation in many respects:
1. Tonguing more lightly. Learning a lighter touch can allow you to articulate faster as well as clearly on the highest notes without subtone. The presence of the subtones you are describing is a strong indicator that you could lighten up quite a bit.
2. Minimize motion. The tip of the tongue should never be far from the reed no matter what is going on in the music.
3. Precision. Learn to tongue the same spot on the reed 99 times out of 100 (or better still 999 out of 1000).
Oops. Thought of a fourth: thinking a syllable that encompasses these ideals instead of "tut-tut"...try "dee-dee-dee" for legato, and "deet-deet-deet" for staccato.
I have had to spend a great deal of time to improve my articulation because I started out as a ferocious anchor tonguer. If I can do it, I'm certain anyone can!
The back of the tongue high in the "eeeee" position is axiomatic for my school of playing.
Good Luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-03-02 15:57)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-03-02 16:40
Hi Timg, Tonguing is always one of the most difficult aspects of teaching the clarinet because we can’t really see what the students is doing. We can only ask, explain and listen. I had a student once that told me he was hitting the reed with the tip of his tongue at every lesson for over a year until it finally dawned on him that he was not touching the reed, as I was suggesting all that time, very frustrating. There are several correct ways to tongue because if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. In other word if someone is tonguing well, fast, light, clean etc. it doesn’t matter if they’re doing it by the book or not. Besides, whose book? It depends on your physical attributes. Marcellus used to advocate high and forward. In other words keep your tongue high in your mouth and close to the reed. I have found that most of my students do well with an arched tongue, high in back, up near or in between the upper molars, but the front of the tongue lower in the mouth. Something like what I think Bob Phillips said. Depending on the size of ones tongue the stroke is either to the tip or just under the tip of the reed. Some can stroke the reed almost straight on and others coming up slightly from below the reed, that’s what I do because I have a “thick” tongue and choke the sound off if I try to keep my entire tongue high. I also find keeping the tongue to high in front makes the tone small and the altissimo register choked sounding. You have to keep the air passing through freely. I really think arching works well for many people and I do use the tut-tut as well as the da-da method to teach staccato and soft tonguing. It’s much easier to describe one on one when working with a student then explaining it on a post but I hope you get the idea. I do not agree with BandieSF either, one should use the tongue, not air for normal tonguing. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: coasten1
Date: 2008-03-03 18:41
Don't forget that along with tonguing, you need to have good breath support and a fast airstream so the reed will respond to the tonguing action.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-03-04 12:45
......and finally,
Did we mention that tonguing is "LEAVING" the reed, NOT "STRIKING" the reed?
So, from what I would suggest, a slow staccato can be conceived as.....
thhhhhhhhhhhhhut, thhhhhhhhut, thhhhhhhhhhut, etc.
................Paul Aviles
P.S. Marcellus once said that learning tonguing is like potty training.
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Author: timg
Date: 2008-03-04 23:32
Embouchure and articulation must be as frustrating to teach as they are to learn. Thanks to everybody who tried to describe an action that nobody can see!
I spent a few hours this weekend experimenting and trying out some suggestions (except for the potty training). The results included a lot of dissonant squarking, but it's probably not a bad idea to take a step backwards from time to time and explore other techniques.
Ed's comments make me think I might not have been so far off the mark with my "old" tonguing style. I also found an old post from 1999, in which Ken Shaw describes the ideal tongue-shape as being like a ski-jump:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=6899&t=6887
The ski-jump shape is exactly what I have been doing, especially for the highest clarion notes. With the whole tongue arched high in the mouth, I found that these notes become stuffy and sluggish.
It would be interesting to make an MRI scan of a good clarinet player's mouth and throat. Though finding a non-metallic clarinet could be awkward!
-Tim
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Author: BandieSF
Date: 2008-03-05 00:56
I was stupid enough to leave out the fact that I was told to take the tongue out so that I could hear those notes and get used to the voicing, then put the tongue back in once that got squared away.
Sorry about that... ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
-----
Current set-up:
Classical:
Strength 4 1/4 Legere Signature Series
Vandoren M13 Lyre
Jazz:
Strength 3 3/4 Legere Quebec
Pomarico Jazz*
Clarinets:
Buffet E11 Student Model
Buffet R13 Greenline
<http://operationhighschool.blogspot.com
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-03-05 11:03
Now that makes a lot more sense BandieSF!
And I believe that your teacher is going about it the same way that I might with a student. Were I you I would add playing of the clarinet's harmonic series into the mix (chalumeau note --add register key-- clarion note).
Good luck lightening the tongue!
TimG,
The "ski jump" is exactly what I use, but we all have different interior dimensions. I think it's important to focus on the tongue high where your molars are, and the tip of the tongue at the tip of the reed...that's why I make those suggestions.
It sounds as if you are over-arching though...with the back of the tongue high no note should come out stuffy, it should spring right out.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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