 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Escsrc
Date: 2008-02-29 20:19
Hey everyone, quick questions on the Schubert Octet. I'm performing it with the uni.'s chamber orchestra this semester, and I was wondering if anyone had a particular favorite recording to look into? I already have access to a few, but I'm unsure which one to recommend to the other players... any thoughts?
More poignantly, for the Variations, its a bit uneconomical for me to buy a C clarinet just for this (since I'm almost exclusively a chamber musician); is it not too big a deal to just go ahead with the Bb, or does it really matter _that much_?
Thanks in advance!
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Author: srattle
Date: 2008-02-29 20:34
You should probably just play it on Bb.
As for recordings, I HIGHLY recommend Nash Ensemble with Richard Hosford. I think a really excellent recording, with some really lovely clarinet playing.
It also has a lovely performance of the Schumann Märchenerzählungen. Plus, it's a live concert, so it's good to hear how people deal with breathing and such.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-29 20:36
I don't have a favorite recording but I, and everyone that I know, transpose the C part to Bb clarinet. Good luck, it's a beautiful piece. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2008-02-29 20:53
I highly recommend the Melos Ensemble recording with clarinettist Gervase de Peyer recorded for EMI.
Each of the performers are outstanding and the ensemble is excellent.
It can be found on amazon.com as well as other sites.
Tom Piercy
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Author: Dan Paprocki
Date: 2008-02-29 21:08
I have a number of Octet recordings and none come close to Harold Wright and the Boston Chamber players.
Dan Paprocki
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-02-29 21:12
Unfortunately Ed doesn't know me! ;-)
I play the Variations on C clarinet. I really find that it adds something to the character of this movement. But I agree that it's not very economical for you to buy a C clarinet just for this.
-Richard Hosford has also recorded the Octet with the Gaudier ensemble and I really enjoy his playing on that too.
-Anthony Pay has made a wonderful recording on period instruments (I think with the Academy of Ancient Music chamber ensemble) I was amazed how different the piece sounds on these instruments and it's definitely worth hearing.
-For an interesting look into traditional Viennese playing I enjoy listening to the 1957 recording of the Wiener Oktett (Alfred Boskovsky on clarinet).
What a great piece. Enjoy!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-02-29 21:27
There are many superb recordings of the Schubert Octet listed above. Here are some more:
One of my favorites is by the Vienna Octet http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Spohr-Octets-Wiener-Octet/dp/B00004TEUV/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204322924&sr=8-2 led by the famous violinist Willi Boskovsky and his brother Alfred (Wlach's successor) on clarinet. They have the inimitable Viennese style, which they do so effortlessly that you hardly notice how good they are.
There is an aircheck of Marcellus playing with the Cleveland Orchestra. He plays wonderfully, but for me it's elephantine.
There's a fine recording on reproductions of period instruments, with Charles Neidich on clarinet http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Octet-LArchibudelli-Mozzafiato-Franz/dp/B000002APO/ref=pd_bbs_9?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204322924&sr=8-9
There's a really good recording by Cleveland Orchestra players, with Ted Johnson on clarinet. He was a superb player who sat second chair to Marcellus and sounded exactly like him. http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Octet-Scott-Haigh/dp/B0000029SF/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204323360&sr=8-1
The Boston Symphony Players, with Harold Wright, are wonderful. http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Octet/dp/B00000E0FL/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204323825&sr=1-1
Finally, I love the version off 78s by the Lener Quartet, Charles Draper, Aubrey Brain and others. http://www.amazon.com/Lener-String-Quartet-Vol-3-Schubert/dp/B000044U1U/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1204323566&sr=8-2
I've played the Octet using a C clarinet where called for. While it's perfectly playable on Bb, I think the C works better.
Ken Shaw
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Author: larryb
Date: 2008-02-29 22:13
The Baerenreiter "urtext" edition comes with an alternative variations part transposed for Bb, but it's not too hard to transpose directly from the original part.
I second the Harold Wright/boston and vienna Octet (with alfred boskovsky) recordings.
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-02-29 23:02
for a great period instrument performance.....
I'm sure i used to own a great recording with Eric Hoeprich playing clarinet, but can't find it... i must have lent it to someone!!!!
One version i like is on the label Arte Nova (74321 34027 2) with the Mithras Octet... Peter Pryzbylla on Clarinet.
dn
FOUND IT
Schubert Octet- Music from Aston Magna
Harmonia Mundi HCX 3957049
Eric Hoeprich on Clarinet, a great performance
AND AGAIN....
listening to the Arte Nova disk as i type... it sounds like chamber music, not a bunch of people in a recording studio, and Pryzbylla really does have a very sweet tone- always ringing but never "hard". I like this recording even if it is from a budget label!
Post Edited (2008-03-01 19:30)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-03-01 00:15
re Ken Shaw's post-
I have heard and owned a number of the recordings, including the Vienna Octet. For me, the Wright/BSO chamber recording is just stellar. I have not heard any that are better.
Considering the Ted Johnson recording - it is good, but I wouldn't say he sounded exactly like Marcellus. I have heard him in many Cleveland recordings where he is a fabulous second to Marcellus. In this recording I never felt he had the same sensibility. Marcellus brings another dimension to the music.
You can find Marcellus playing it with Cleveland on a Cleveland box set issued a few years back and on many aircheck recording that people have. Ken says it sounds elephantine. One of the reasons may be that Szell used an expanded string section to make it a chamber orchestra piece. It is very good, but changes the character somewhat.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-03-01 00:27
You might want to have available an excellent C clarinet - the sound is most appropriate for this piece. Borrow it if you don't own one. I've played it both on Bb and C and there's no comparison as to the musical and sonic result.
The early analogue recording of Antony Pay w/Academy of St. Martin in the Fields was ground breaking for it's time (late 70's). It may still be available and worth the search. Pay played in the style not heard in many a decade (save Thurston) completely reactionary to the wide sounding Kell/Brymer/DePeyer tradition that had previously dominated. The ensemble is superb.
The Cleveland/Szell/Marcellus air check from the fall of 1965 is indeed another animal completely. Although I would not use "elephantine" in the pejorative, it does take on a slow tempo or two, especially in the 1st movement.
This was because Szell had the idea (one put forth by Toscannini with Schubert's model, the Beethoven Septet) of making the piece into more of an orchestral or symphonic styled reading using several stands of strings along with the single winds. Whether this works musically for you, one must still first keep this in mind.
Of course this does not take away from some of the most beautiful, Schubertian melodies spun by the winds, Marcellus in particular. In fact it was one of Marcellus' favorite recordings of himself - and that's no small thing to say, especially if one knew how critical he was of his own recordings.
It's available through the Cleveland Orchestra website in a multi disk tribute to Szell/Cleveland containing live recordings available nowhere else.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2008-03-01 00:28)
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2008-03-01 13:42
I would highly recommend the Berliner Solisten with Karl Leister. I would also highly recommend the Marcellus recording that Gregory already mentioned. While this recording is certainly "live" with interesting playing by the horns, Marcellus truly shines. If one is looking for a great Marcellus recording that I believe defined his greatness, this would be the recording.
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-03-03 12:20
Apart from the excellent Draper/Lener historical recording referenced by Ken above, the modern instruments performance that does it for me is Consortium Classicum on (I think) MDG.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2008-03-04 11:14
I agree with Gregory Smith. The Antony Pay/ Academy Chamber ensemble is an excellent recording. Pay does play with a focussed tone in comparison to DePayer, Brymer and other prominent English (wide bore) players of the late 70's.
However Greg's claim;
"completely reactionary to the wide sounding Kell/Brymer/DePeyer tradition that had previously dominated"
seems a bit of a stretch. English players have always had a variety of sounds.
Got to say that for me Pay is just about the ideal in Clarinet playing.
Chris O.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-03-04 12:51
Phurster said:
However Greg's claim;
"completely reactionary to the wide sounding Kell/Brymer/DePeyer tradition that had previously dominated"
seems a bit of a stretch. English players have always had a variety of sounds."
-------------------------------------
The sounds emanating from the UK, at least commercially speaking during the 50's, 60's, and early 70's were for us in the US, Kell, Brymer and DePeyer. There were no other voices let alone *dominating* ones (which was my point). The line of Draper/Thurston seemed to have vanished as far as we knew. Where were these other schools to be heard that you speak of?
Certainly there are always others during those types of trends but who were those that *dominated* and that were heard outside the UK? We certainly never heard about them *to the degree* that there seemed to be other ways of playing. I and others would honestly be interested in knowing to satisfy our own curiosity.
The straightforward and focused type of clarinetistry that arrived commercially in the US during the late 70's with Pay's and Hacker's recordings even had the clarinet world here wondering if they hadn't trained somewhere else? In that way, they seemed reactionary to us after having lived with the "Three Clarinetists" for many years.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2008-03-04 13:23)
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2008-03-05 06:18
Greg,
You make a fair point. The only commercially available recordings (English players) up to the late 70’s seem to be of players with wide bore instruments playing with varying degrees of vibrato. The controlled “vibrato less” style of playing, of which Thurston is an example, does not seem to be represented on record.
As a teenager I was in the UK up to the late 70’s and I can only say that not everyone sounded like Brymer, Kell et al. However, as you rightly point out these players were not heard commercially. I too would be interested if there were any prominent English players who played as Thurston did.
Now a days marvellous players such as Tony Pay, Michael Collins, Julian Bliss balance the former stereotype of the “English school” .
Chris Ondaatje.
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Author: graham
Date: 2008-03-05 06:47
The bore size is not relevant. Thurston played on a wide bore instrument and was the most influential in making it popular. Kell's instruments were narrower bore than Thurston's.
The paradox is that most English players of the 60s/70s period would have said they were natural descendants of Thurston, though it is now difficult to hear much similarity. Only Brymer appears to have made a conscious effort to emulate Kell, but their playing could scarcely be more different if one ignores the tendency to use vibrato (which is possible because the way they used it was not very similar either). Even the late Thea King, both pupil and wife of Thurston, sounded nothing like him.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2008-03-05 09:52
Greg,
Another thought….we are forced to draw our conclusions from whatever evidence we have at hand.
From the 50’s to the early 80’s commercial recordings were the only ways to draw any conclusions about the style of playing in a country. Some broad generalizations were reasonable:
In Germany playing a Wurlitzer Clarinet with a close facing mouthpiece was compulsory.
The French played Buffet or Selmer with a brighter sound than the Germans. Some used vibrato and others didn’t.
In England at least three people played on wide bored instruments with vibrato.
If I were to draw conclusions about the “American” sound based on the evidence I had in the early eighties. The sound would have been a mixture of Stolzman, Benny Goodman and David Glazer. These were the main commercial recordings that were available to me then.
I only became aware of Marcellus’s beautiful Mozart years later. I also thought he must have studied in another country…maybe Germany or England.
The internet and wide selection of CD’s available make it difficult to generalize about National characteristics of playing.
Chris Ondaatje.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-03-05 21:22
Leopold Wlach on MCA is to my mind the finest of many great European clarinet recordings..the finale has a real Viennese feel as well.
The horn solos are all incredible too..the label is MILENIUM CLASSICS...
more recent recordings I really like are my old teacher Harold Wright (with Boston Chamber players)..the blend is fantastic between him and the bassoon as well as the horn.
ps. Frederick Thurston had a narrow sound and no vibrato..I really love his work on the Brahms symphonies under Toscannini with the Philharmonia..this set of Brahms surpasses the NBC Brahms cycle of Brahms.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-03-06 19:17
The Leopold Wlach recording is with the Vienna Konzerthaus Quartet ..the players arehorn legend Gottfied von Frieberg and Karl Ochlberger on bassoon..the recording no. is MCAC80094.
There is also a companion recording of Wlach doing the Brahms and Mozart Quintets on the same label from 1952/
David Dow
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Author: Escsrc
Date: 2008-03-07 04:06
Thanks everyone!
I already had the Leister and Thurston, so I went ahead and looked at the Wiener Oktett and Pay's rendition. Both have been very helpful! (Pay especially in the variations)
Greg, right now there is no C clarinet to borrow! The Berkshires appears to have dried up on the one aspect I needed immediately...! But, it seems its not unthinkable to do without.
Here's another question to throw out there; how many of you have performed it with all repeats? Right now it looks like we're cutting the first one (we haven't looked at the last movement yet, either...); the Oktett did so as well, is this just general practice for longer performances including more than just the octet and the Beethoven septet?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-03-07 06:07
Seeing that Schubert put repeats in, I think one should respect his wishes and play them.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-03-10 13:50
Gregory Smith states that this was Marcellus' favorite recording of himself and many will agree that he absolutely shines here.
As I was thinking about this thread and the Marcellus recording, an interesting fact occurred to me. Some may find it interesting to note that on the Schubert Octet Marcellus did not use the Kaspar 13 that he was noted for. I recall that he said that he used a Kaspar 11 on this piece. Of course, he would sound fabulous on nearly anything!
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-03-10 14:26
Hello Ed.
Marcellus used to talk about finding a Kaspar facing that felt in between the two, whether or not it was an actual 11 or a 13. He said that a more open feeling 11 or a closer 13 was just about right and actually played both types. He said that if Kaspar made a 12 it would seem about right.
He must have known that Kaspar did make 12's on occasion but I view his description as being instructive as to going by feel rather than strictly by the numbers...something I've personally come to understand having worked with mouthpieces.
Also of interest was his description of the personality of that particular Kaspar played on the Schubert performance. He didn't care for it so much in the full orchestra as it was, as he put it, too "French" in sound quality. Perhaps that luminosity associated with the older French school is what gives his sound a very special "ring" or "glow" on that particular work - a work so demanding of life to the sound and phrase.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
new model, new barrel
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-03-10 16:01
I've been told that Kaspar would have you sit in his workshop as he adjusted a mouthpiece to fit your clarinet, embouchure and playing style. Certainly he would have been available to do that for the Cleveland Orchestra principal. If so, the facing number would hardly matter, since the mouthpiece would have been altered from its original design.
Greg -
I thought the Chicago Kaspars got more open as the number went higher. When I got mine, I ordered a 15 because I liked a more open lay than most people, and that's the way it came. (I later asked Everett Matson reduce it to a 14, and he understood what I wanted.)
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-03-10 17:11
Ken -
I had not heard of either Clark Brody or Robert Marcellus having Kaspar adjust or customize mouthpieces for them. Clark Brody once liked a Kaspar mouthpiece so much that he sat for hours unsuccessfully having Kaspar try to duplicate it to supercede it or to have a backup.
Both told me that they purchased their Kaspar mouthpieces - and Marcellus had multitudes of them for both him and his pupils - either through the mail (Marcellus) or in person (Brody played at Orchestra Hall Chicago, 2 1/2 blocks up the street from Kaspar).
Kaspar would lay out 5 or so mouthpieces on the table and you took whatever was there - little or no adjusting. Either you liked one or two or you didn't. Marcellus visited his friend Clark Brody in Chicago several times and went to Kaspar's shop to select mouthpieces in person. Again, no customization - just ever so slight adjustments, if any, to the pieces already made.
Kaspar was so busy doing repair work that mouthpieces were just a part of his work day. If he could fit you in for an appt. when he had enough mouthpieces ready to try, one considered themselves fortunate. The vast majority of Kaspars were ordered through the mail. The last three that Marcellus purchased for himself were done via mail. That was spring of 1968.
Perhaps I could have been a little more clear in my explanation about the numbers on Kaspar's mouthpieces. The 11 always meant a 1.11mm tip opening and 13 a 1.13 tip opening. So yes, the higher the number, the more open the mouthpiece.
I said that "a more open feeling 11 or a closer feeling 13 was just about right" implying that the mouthpieces stamped 13 sometimes felt *too* open and the mouthpieces stamped 11 felt *too* close and that the ideal was to find something that felt neither way...something like the "imaginary" 12 that he was talking about.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
new model, new barrel
Post Edited (2008-03-11 00:17)
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-03-11 19:20
These postings, interesting that they may or may not be, are not about the Schubert Octet, one of the most profound works by Schubert and of the era. They are about clarinet players and measuring them according to whom one likes.
Outside of repeats and switching clarinets, there is no relevance to this work, again reflecting the lack of knowledge of the repertoire, or form or Schubert. What can be gained by reading them, one might ask? What meanings do these adjectives have? According to whom? Who was Ferdinand Troyer?
Post Edited (2008-03-11 19:29)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2008-03-11 20:38
It's seems that someone has overlooked the original 2 questions posted about the Schubert Octet in this particular thread.
1) Which recordings would posters recommend listening to?
2) Should the player transpose the C clarinet parts or play on a C clarinet?
Granted, the way the subject has been discussed is a little pedantic - an appropriate reflection of the original two rather simply posed questions.
But unless I missed something, this thread wasn't meant to be stimulating discussion about music history or lofty intellectual insight about Schubertian espressivos.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
new model, new barrel
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-03-11 22:39
My advice for any clarinetist in doing the Octet is to have a few really good playing reeds..it is a fairly long piece and requires great stamina. It is alot of help to spend a bit of time with the horn and bassoon on some of the harder tricky tuing spots...one of which is the opening chord.
By the time you get to the variations you may need to change reeds too..so make sure the Concert master is aware there may be some time needed between movements. In rehearsal time should also be spent on matching staccatto values with strings and on balances especailly in tuttis.
As to the slow movement the choice of tempi is quite tricky...make sure eye contact is made with section leaders at the beginnings and ends of phrases.
Also if the concertmaster is leading make sure he gives a good nod at the beginnning of each movement for precision if needed.
David Dow
Post Edited (2008-03-11 22:39)
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