 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-02-26 17:04
One of our young artist competition winners is performing the Rhapsody in Blue and we just got the orchestral music. The woodwind parts include 3 saxophone parts and I have a question for those of you who have performed this piece before -- particularly with a full professional orchestra. Are those parts intended to be optional, doubled, or are they in addition to the three clarinet parts? The reason I ask is that, while they are not marked optional, the sax parts are identified as they would be for a dance band (1st alto, 2nd tenor, 3rd alto). Also, the 1st alto part has the opening clarinet gliss solos in it -- not as cues, but marked as solos with instructions that they are to be played on Bb clarinet. After the first bar of rehearsal number 2, however, the part switches to alto and never switches back to clarinet so it does not have any of the other clarinet solos. The bass clarinet part is identified as "Bass Clarinet 2nd Saxophone (Tenor)" and the part is identical to the separate tenor sax part, except for an 8-bar section at rehearsal #5, which is marked ""bass clarinet only" in the bass part and shown as bassoon cues in the tenor sax part. However, there are no indications in the bass part, that any of it is to be played on tenor sax. The 3rd alto part appears independent but is probably doubling other instruments in the orchestra.
I listened to an old St. Louis Symphony recording of the piece and I can hear saxophones in a couple of places but they are always doubled. I believe the parts are borrowed from another local orchestra (they are old and yellowed) and the conductor only has a piano score so he can't tell.
I suppose the opening solo in the lead alto sax part could simply be to provide an option if the principal clarinetist isn't up to the opening. (Or perhaps it was arranged that way for Al Gallodoro.) In any case, I would appreciate input on the use of saxophones with/vs. clarinets in this piece. I was planning to play the bass clarinet part but, if we need saxophones, will probably wind up on the 1st alto part (sans the opening solo - our principal will never give that up!)
Thanks in advance.
jnk
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-02-26 17:36
I would have Saxes included if I had that option. I've played the full version at a Music Festival with a Student Solo Winner and they didn't use any Saxes, but it would have certainly been a nice addition to the sound.
That concert (which it was the last piece on the program) I had to play the last 2 pages transposed on my A Clarinet as my low C#/G# key spring broke right then - bit of pressure put on me there!!!
What's interesting about Rhapsody is that you can really tell if the conductor is not comfortable with Jazz - it shows big time in that piece.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2008-02-26 17:44
Hi Jack:
We always use the 3 sax version at the NY Pops, and all other professional groups here in NYC.
You can "get by" with the doubles, but I suggest using the saxes...they can always use the work!
Have fun, it's a great piece.
BTW: On my website, I open with the Rhapsody gliss...fun!
http://www.johnmosesclarinet.com
BTW2: If you've listened to the really old St. Louis Sym. recording of the Rhapsody with Slatkin conducting, I'm playing the solo clarinet part...fun!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
Post Edited (2008-02-26 17:45)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-02-26 18:11
I've always played it with the 3 saxes, and a banjo player if you can find one. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
As John said, the 3 sax parts add quite a bit of color and authenticity to the orchestration. Although they do not play on their own, I've always missed their sound in the ensemble sections when either for monetary reasons or lack of available freelancers, we didn't have them.
I looked at my full score (1924/1942 Warner Brothers) and the 1st clarinet gliss is not shown on the 1st alto line. For the most part it looks as if the altos double the woodwinds, and the tenor sax doubles either the bass clarinet. bassoon or low strings.
I think the most important exposed 1st alto line is the little theme at #10. At that point the 1st alto doubles the oboe and both of the parts are marked "slap tongue". Without the lead alto at that point, the melody does not stand out enough.
After all, who ever wants to hear an oboe "slap tongue"?
...GBK
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-02-26 19:15
>>After all, who ever wants to hear an oboe "slap tongue"?
>>
I'd like to hear it done just to prove that it *can* be done--*if* it can. I don't play oboe or bassoon. The only double-reed instruments I've got are Chinese suonas (shawms) that don't have the proper reeds. I've got oboe reeds on them but the fact that I can't get a slap-tongue out of them doesn't mean anything, since I don't know how to play either the suonas or the oboe reeds! (I just use them to threaten Shadow Cat if she makes too much noise about the clarinet. Usually, when I ask if she'd like to hear some clarinet, she skedaddles, but if she hangs around and kvetches at me, I reach for a suona and she's outta here so fast she Doppler-shifts.) Any of you doublers out there know whether it's possible to play slap on a double reed instrument?
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-26 21:17
We always use the Sax's in the BSO when we do it. It's true that the bass clarinet is doubled with the tenor sax except the beginning, which has the bass clarinet solo. Our parts have the clarinet solo in the beginning in the clarinet part. It might also be in a sax part but it's definitely in the 1st clarinet part too, at least in our parts. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-02-26 22:33)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-02-26 22:05
In the Orchestral version it's 2 clts and bass with the 3 sax parts, 2 altos and tenor if I remember rightly. I sounds like the parts you have are the original dance band parts. When I did the solo last I don't recall the solo being in the alto sax part in the orchestral arrangement. All the best with it.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-26 22:32
I don’t think this is the original instrumentation because when we did the original, with George playing piano, at least his player piano edition, my part was bass, Bb, Eb and alto sax all on one part. It’s been sometime so I may have something wrong there but it definitely had multiple instruments on one part. The full orchestra version has 2 clarinet, bass clarinet and 3 sax plus full orchestra, the original is scored for about 16-18 players, or something like that. It was scored for a “big band” not a symphony orchestra. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-02-27 03:55
Thank you all. Looks like we (which will probably translate to "I") have some recruiting to do.
The version of the Rhapsody we are playing is the full orchestration by Grofe. The opening solo is actually printed as a solo in both the 1st clarinet and 1st alto sax parts. Maybe they're supposed to fight over it. 
John, it was indeed the Slatkin version with Jeffrey Siegel as the soloist -- my favorite recording of the piece. Since Slatkin didn't become music director of the SLSO until shortly after we moved to St. Louis (we came in 1977), I had assumed the recording was made after you left but I see from the "cover" that it was actually recorded in 1974. When I listened, I wondered who the clarinetist was. Certainly George Silfies was capable of doing it but it was the kind of part that Bob Coleman, who had more of a jazz background, often performed with the orchestra. Now I know it was you. Great job, as usual.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-02-27 07:36
I'm playing this tomorrow night (as 2nd clarinet) with the Auckland Philharmonia... we only have one Sax (first alto) but it really would sound better with all three- it gives a really great sound to the wind section, even if all the voicing is doubled.
btw- i really feel the oboe/1st alto unison solo should be just the sax on it's own so the Sax can be a bit more soloistic... just my 10c
dn
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-02-27 15:21
Using the full orchestra (Grofe) version, all of the bass clarinet part is redundant (doubling the tenor sax) except for the brief solo at rehearsal #5. To quote Michael Drapkin: "This passage is usually played one octave lower [than notated]". (Sorry Ed Palanker!) The solo is notated an octave lower in the original jazz band orchestration.
When we played RIB in the NSO I usually doubled on tenor sax, except in concerts where we also played "American in Paris" which employs 3 discrete sax parts. This was an economics-driven decision by management!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-02-27 16:25
I've heard another arrangement (one of the London orchestras recordings) where a soprano and bari sax replace the oboe and bassoon for the first theme later on (usually the bit that gets cut on some recordings), before the slow theme, and also where the soprano sax plays the clarinet solo before the solo wah-wah trumpet and trombone and low brass 'ba-ba-ba-ba-ba' (or 'da-da-da-da-da') bit.
Not Rhapsody, but in 'An American in Paris' I've never heard the string and wind (usually flute and oboe) players manage swung quavers - they either play very stiff, straight or very dotted quavers (following the trumpet 'boo-dah, boo-dah, boo-dah, boo-dah, bah- bah- bah-' solo - you know the bit), but never swung.
But I have heard some pianists swing some of their solo bits in Rhapsody which makes a refreshing change.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-02-27 18:52
The problem with swinging stuff in the context of classical performance is that someone has to go to the bother of deciding when/where to swing and where not to... time is usually an issue- with limited rehearsal times etc
(but i suppose if someone thought to do it in advance, we could get the part with a sheet giving all the bar numbers where they want us to swing quavers... i could live with that)
dn
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-02-27 23:01
Time isn't the only factor - players who don't understand the concept of (or have the feel of) swing and how to play swung quavers is the other. If time isn't an issue (and if someone has the penchant for rewriting parts), the swing bits could be written out in 12/8 for those that don't.
I can't remember which recording of 'American...' I've heard (possibly by the Boston Pops), but as for the saxes - well... no words can describe (or I can't find any that do). And whoever played alto on that particular recording just makes me melt each time I hear it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2008-02-28 21:59
A year ago, I played this as an oboist with an orchestra. The clarinet player was not comfortable with the cadenza, so I played that also, as I studied that with Ben Kanter. Later in the piece, the oboe/bassoon duet is doubled on the alto sax part, so I played it soloistically on the alto sax to better effect than playing it on the oboe. It remains a great unique piece. Good luck!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-02-28 22:17
Swinging it is not usually a problem for a professional orchestra in the USA because we’re used to doing Pops concerts. The conductor just says, “Swing this section” and it’s done. Sometimes the player asks if this section should swing. It’s a non-issue here in Baltimore.
In reference to Larry Bocaner saying sorry to me let me explain. The solo in the bass clarinet part in Grofe’s version is written an octave higher then in the orignal version but it is now doubled in the cellos in the lower octave. It is true that most players do it an octave lower when playing the Grofe version, I’ve always done it as written and here’s why. By the way, I’ve been playing it that way for 45 years now in the BSO with tons of different conductors and pianists and no one has ever asked me to do it an octave lower. When we do the original version I play it as written, in the lower octave.
Because it is now doubled in the cellos when playing it an octave lower you’re playing the same notes in the same register, it is no longer a solo and in many recordings it just blends and you can’t tell the bass clarinet is even playing unless they mic it up. So I always play it as written, an octave higher then the cellos, so it’s a solo not doubling the entire cello section. Makes sense to me and no complaints though it is much more difficult because it’s on the break of the bass clarinet. At an audition you should play it in the lower octave but be prepared to play it both ways just in case. But I am in the minority. (But I’m right) ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457
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Author: donald
Date: 2009-09-30 04:48
Just looking at this old thread because I have to play this in a few weeks (in the original band version I believe). Does anyone know who was playing the solo for the recording by the Philadelphia Orchestra with Ormandy- Gigliotti?
re my comments last year about rehearsal time/swinging etc. Musicians all around the world have to play pops concerts, and are able to swing quavers. my point was that for longer scores, and where there may be many places that are swung and many that are not, it can be very time consuming for the conductor to specify where he/she wants you to swing. I have performed pieces where we were told to swing in one place, and then the rest of the work everybody is trying to guess what to do because there is no time or opportunity to stop and sort it out (I'm talking about professional situations where there may only be very small amount of time dedicated to a work).
As someone who loves Jazz and grew up listening to this music, please don't imagine I think all music should be "straight", I'm just noting a situation that has contributed to making performances less than ideal.
dn
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-30 18:08
I realize I may take some flak for saying thing, but I don't think swing 8ths really belong in Rhapsody in Blue, with a possible exception or two where *very slight* swinging of 8ths in the piano solo might be OK.
The reason I say this is that a lot of what "makes the piece" musically is the strict rhythm (some of which more closely resembles klezmer than jazz, actually--the 3-3-2 bulgar rhythm of the "train" section does, anyway). Parts of the piece move together like a big machine, and you just don't that kind of effect with swing 8ths.
Besides, even bona fide jazz in those days was less swung than, say, in the 1930s--1920s jazz (at least what I've heard of it) was more like ragtime than swing. And "swing" as a jazz genre didn't really come about until the 1930s.
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Author: peergynt
Date: 2014-07-30 12:08
Sorry to dig out an old thread. This is regarding the bass clarinet part.
Here we go, are the last six bars (of the piece) usually taken down an octave? Or played in the altissimo?
Post Edited (2014-07-30 12:14)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-07-30 18:04
Al Gollodoro was remembered by Chad Smith about a month ago in a NY concert. He played on Al's 1958 Selmer instruments, with backup players. Sorry I could not attend.
richard smith
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-07-30 19:49
I'm not an expert on Gershwin, jazz or Blues but I've hear RIB many times. The mention of banjo would seem to indicate Gershwin could have intended the piece to at least be a crossover from Ragtime. I personally think Bass Clarinet is definitely appropriate as well as sax in performance.
Bob Draznik
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-07-30 23:53
I played the intro on Tenor sax yesterday, and it sounded pretty good.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-07-31 07:08
wow, you glissed up to altissimo C on the tenor? respect! My sax chops aren't up to that. And then the double high F!!!!! crikey. Would be a lot easier on the Alto.
Post Edited (2014-07-31 10:39)
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-01 02:10
donald wrote:
> wow, you glissed up to altissimo C on the tenor? respect! My
> sax chops aren't up to that. And then the double high F!!!!!
> crikey. Would be a lot easier on the Alto.
>
>
> Post Edited (2014-07-31 10:39)
God no, I took it down an octave. Only been playing sax for a month
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-01 02:10
donald wrote:
> wow, you glissed up to altissimo C on the tenor? respect! My
> sax chops aren't up to that. And then the double high F!!!!!
> crikey. Would be a lot easier on the Alto.
>
>
> Post Edited (2014-07-31 10:39)
God no, I took it down an octave. Only been playing sax for a month.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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