 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: lemonlog
Date: 2008-02-21 03:48
Hello!
(If you prefer not to read the intro, simply skip to paragraph #3.)
It seems every clarinetist I know, from students to teachers, does not believe in alto clarinets. Having played one myself for a very small while (An old leaky Bundy with a slightly chipped Selmer Paris mouthpiece), I must say that I was expecting more from the instrument in general. Perhaps due to the defects or that the instrument was plastic, it sounded like a low-pitched CSO, comparable to the sound of PVC pipe topped with an alto sax m/p...
However I have this feeling the altos get much better! I had never heard one for the longest time, and the sound I had imagined was a dark, round, projecting tone comparable to the warmest notes of the Bb Clarinet chalumeau, but extending lower (I did not give much thought to the clarion and up).
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To the point, I am in search of ideas and tips in regards to finding a good alto clarinet as well as a compatible mouthpiece for it. I'm looking at fairly-priced instruments [[[made of hard-rubber primarily]]], but am also quite curious about professional (made-of-whatever, priced-at-whatever) ones.
My colleagues complain that the instrument in general:
*...does not play in tune with itself.
*...sounds weak and unimpressive.
*...does not project well.
*...has been so overlooked that NONE of them are well-built.
I'd certainly like to know of an Eb Alto that would change these perceptions!
Which make and mouthpieces have you all tried out and what do they sound like? .709 or .678 bore? Oh boy - any contributions to this topic would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks  I may decide to buy one at some point.
Adrian A. S. C.
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Post Edited (2008-02-21 04:08)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-02-21 04:19
I have a (probably ca. 1950s-1960s) Kohlert (Winnenden, Germany) alto clarinet which plays wonderfully in all respects. I wish I had more opportunity to play it! Mostly it just sits in the closet.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-02-21 04:29
I borrow the school's (college) yamaha 62 II alto clarinet and it is excellent. feels just like a bass clarinet in some respects and handles very much so like a clarinet if you are ambidextrous that is. Are you looking for recordings? i can put some up, but i'm not half as good as others on the forum.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: lemonlog
Date: 2008-02-21 04:44
Thank you David S and C2thew for the posts -
Sure I'd love to hear some alto clarinet .
Adrian A. S. C.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-02-21 04:58
I've never heard anything bad or any complaint against alto clarinets other than on this forum.
I play an old cheap Pedler alto clarinet. It has pretty good sound, great response, and not very good intonation (especially the throat notes). I also have an old Leblanc that doesn't have great response but the sound in most of the range is very good (in some ways I like it more than the Pedler). It also has some intoantion issues.
I've also tried old and new Selmers and they were much better, especially the new one, without any real problem (except the keys were very uncomfortable to me).
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2008-02-21 06:04
"and the sound I had imagined was a dark, round, projecting tone comparable to the warmest notes of the Bb Clarinet chalumeau, but extending lower (I did not give much thought to the clarion and up)."
You must be thinking of a basset horn. How's your wallet?
I have a Vito student model (plastic) with the stock Leblanc mp that came with it on which I use med soft (I think) alto sax reeds. I keep it GOOD repair; it is properly adjusted and does not leak -- a horn that leaks or is poorly adjusted is very frustrating, esp if you do not play it much and thus have little experience with it. That said, the alto definitely has nasal qualities in the clarion reg, but you can make it "sing" nonetheless. You have to accept it for what it is -- an alto clarinet. Not a basset horn, a bass clarinet, or a soprano clarinet. I use it mostly for playing English folk dance music, where its tone blends right in with accordions and banjos. It is used by serious players of klezmer and jazz, I understand. The big limitation is not the tone but the key; in Eb it is not convenient to play in sharp keys much of the time.
Steve Epstein
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-02-21 08:10
The only one I ever tried was really nice - to the extent that I'd be interested in getting one of my own one day. It was an old Leblanc (from the era with the really chunky keywork), with a 5RV on it, and it played like butter.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-21 08:58
I have a Bundy Alto which I spent considerable time on with and fine-tuning and tweaking, and with its masterly refaced mouthpiece (thanks again, David!) it plays nice, warm, in tune and all. (I should add that some notes are quirkier than others, but that's not necessarily an "Alto" idiosyncrasy)
--
Ben
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-02-21 11:40
I tried a Buffet Prestige alto at a show. It responded beautifully, had a very light and precise action and sounded great. Save your pennies.
Kalmen Opperman says that the Selmer Series 9 altos are the best sounding ones. I haven't tried his (which has been extensively tweaked), but you can hear it played wonderfully in the Opperman Clarinet Choir, on the Stoltzman CDs . They appear from time to time on eBay, but since most of them come from schools where they usually have been mistreated, be prepared for some restoration costs and, of course, a new mouthpiece from one of the Sponsors.
Ken Shaw
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2008-02-21 12:13
Another opportunity for the anti-alto clarinet fanatics to get in their digs.
I bought a Selmer alto (from the 70s) on ebay a few years ago (for $700), spent $50 to get the leaks plugged, bought a Grabner mouthpiece (which made a huge difference), and it plays like a dream. If you're going to play in a clarinet choir, one of the most fun parts is the alto part, and that's the one ensemble in which it really matters to have one.
I guess there must be some difference in the sound between an alto and a basset horn, but if they're both in good repair and played by somebody who knows what they're doing, it's not that big a difference (and yes, I'm a pro-alto clarinet fanatic). I say...have fun with it and make it sound beautiful.
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2008-02-21 12:22
I confess to having been an alto clarinet bigot in my younger days, in high school and college. Some 20+ years after the fact, I've gained some new respect for the much-maligned instrument.
I have an X series Selmer from the early 1970s, and it plays very nicely. The tone is rich and warm, intonation is quite good; even the old Vito France mouthpiece that came with it plays surprisingly well. Not sure whether it's a Series 9 or not - it just has the Selmer logo with the "Depose" trademark above. I would guess not but it's a great player nonetheless.
My only beef with it is that the reach for the right-hand side keys on the upper joint is a stretch. No matter, it's opened a new sonic arena for me.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-02-21 13:32
I play a 1979 Selmer Eb alto with a Selmer HS* mouthpiece. As an adult amateur, I keep this pro-quality Selmer in good condition and IMHO it's a good clarinet. I often play it with alto sax reeds, to focus the tone quality close to that of a B-flat clarinet, but it plays well (though it projects less) with alto clarinet reeds, too.
A frequent complaint about altos is bad, inconsistent intonation in the throat tones combined with fuzzy, weak and often flat notes from the first d above the break up through the f# at the top of the staff. One of the main things I like about this Selmer is that it doesn't have that problem, although I'm not sure how much of the difference is due to manufacturing standards and how much to adjustment / tweaking.
I'm convinced that a lot of the alto's terrible reputation comes from youthful experiences with neglected, abused, school-owned instruments, since most kids' parents don't purchase the harmony clarinets. Leaky pads, worn-out springs and a cheap mouthpiece with a chipped tip (been there, played that...) don't do a whole lot to entice a student to love this instrument or want to buy one later.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-02-21 14:28
What a fine thread, I should have looked in here last nite, instead of watching the "idiot box", however, "Company" was a great, unusual , musical, who played clar??, John Moses, perhaps ? Lelia's and Ken's posts say pretty much my feelings re: my fine Sel B series [small bore] A C, with a Pomarico 3/mellow glass mp [soft reeds], the very best I've found with some research !! With that combo, I've been able to find "a place for us" in our comm bands etc, playing parts which are often well different, some "solo harmonies" ! , from the 3rd cls, saxes, horns etc in both trans. classics and contemporaries [ the goods and bads] . Sometimes I have no parts, and will copy a bari sax part, or accept [ugh] a 2nd alto sax part. I have been known to even [try to] sight transpose a bass cl part !!. Being in Eb, and covering the range of the F English Horn, it can serve as a diff.-but-good-toned sub, try it, its again the simplest trans. It also is given trans. viola parts in some classics ! AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: monzamess
Date: 2008-02-21 14:35
What is it about the alto clarinet that makes it worthwhile? The Bb and Bass have the range totally covered, so there must be some redeeming quality about the way the alto sounds in that range--but what is it?
I was surprised to hear Hamiet Bluiett play alto clarinet as the lead instrument in one of his pieces with the World Saxophone Quartet. Although he seemed to play very well, it was the same nasal, stuffy sound I expect from an alto...
Sidenote: I played alto clarinet in HS as a form of punishment. I was playing alto sax, but I tried out for all-state band on alto clarinet simply because almost no one else played it. Not being my director's favorite kid, and being the first in our school to make all-state in recent memory or possibly ever, my reward was having to give up sax and play the alto clarinet through our HS concert season. Sometimes I played alto sax parts on it to escape the boredom.
This is a serious question, I have nothing against the alto clarinet, despite my rant above.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-02-21 15:14
"The Bb and Bass have the range totally covered..."
That's one way to spin it; the other is "Neither the Bb nor the bass covers its range..."
Well, arguably any reasonable alto clarinet part could be played on a bass. But in different registers with consequent differences in tone color.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2008-02-21 15:30
OK this is from a guy that just sprang for a new Buffet Prestige alto clarinet. It hasn't arrived yet but I'm very excited about it.
Right now I own two LeBlanc (Paris) altos that i bought second hand for very good prices (one for $300!). Coupled with a Hite or Grabner mouthpiece both of them sound very full and not at all stuffy/ nasal and the sound on both is actually similar but bigger than the sound on my much newer LeBlanc basset horn. I would describe them as MELLOW, sort of like comparing a violin to a viola. Certainly no one has said "throw out the violas because we have violins and cellos who can play those same notes!"
The same mouthpiece are used on both the basset horn as those altos. The basset horn is mechanically-superior to the older altos but I'm betting the new Buffet will beat them both if it's anything like their basses.
If you come from playing the Bb clarinet, alto takes a bit of adjustment. It and the basset horn need to be COAXED. I use a 2 1/2 Gonzalez sax reed on both alto and basset horn whereas I use a 3 1/2-4 on the Eb and Bb.
Do agree on many of the parts that are assigned to alto are less than exciting. In most of those instances I end up playing one of the other clarinets, doing just the solos/ unique parts on the alto. In clarinet choirs it does have a valuable role.
I play mainly Eb and bass and have suffered with the same sort of problem with the Eb in terms of acceptance. Often I hear comments, "oh that CAN sound pretty." Like the alto, I think too many people have heard bad players/ poorly made instruments. Apparently many of the older instruments were made poorly but the modern ones should not be a problem.
To monzamess I must say rejoice ion the fact that you made All State, getting to play in a rich musical experience. THANKS to the alto clarinet! Those experiences were great to me, even 35 years later.
Eefer guy
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Author: monzamess
Date: 2008-02-21 15:58
"Well, arguably any reasonable alto clarinet part could be played on a bass. But in different registers with consequent differences in tone color."
Maybe I asked something that can't be answered in a short message board reply. Indeed I seem to recall a reference to a journal article on the necessity of the alto clarinet.
A better question *might* be, what are the sweet spots in the alto's range? What is it about the alto's sound that a composer thinks makes its inclusion worthwhile? Again, one could argue that the composer is a genius and who are we to even question its inclusion, but surely, there must be some common wisdom about when to include the alto vs. assigning lines to Bb and bass clarinets...???
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Author: Mike Johnson
Date: 2008-02-21 17:22
If you look at the sound spectrum of overlapping notes on the soprano, alto, and bass, the waveforms will be different. It is all a matter of how carefully one wants to sculpt the sound. Some people won't hear the difference...others will. There are people out there who can't differentiate between a guitar and a dulcimer, and that is a much bigger difference than bass to alto or soprano to alto clarinet.
In the end, we are all part of the Great Clarinet Armada that secretly lies waiting, destined to rule the world when the time is right.
Mike Johnson
Napa, California
Post Edited (2008-02-21 17:22)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-02-21 17:25
Monzamess I think it's just that one line on alto would be impossible to play by one player if they have to change from soprano to bass. Whether it would sound good played by two players on soprano and bass changes in each specific case I guess.
I don't know about the "sweet spots" in the alto range, but I use the entire range most times I play it, though I've never played music composed by someone else on alto clarinet. I play it because sometimes it is more interesting for me to use several instruments in one concert, and my alto not only has a different range but also a different sound.
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Author: swkeess
Date: 2008-02-21 18:17
I played a Bundy alto clarinet all through high school and found it to be a very good instrument. Right now I'm playing a 1985 Buffet Prestige and it has a beautiful tone, not stuffy in any of its range. I've played with several mouthpieces, including a VanDoren B44, 5RV, and a Grabner custom mouthpiece, and have found each of them to add their own character to the sound. The fingering on the alto is wider apart than on my bass clarinet, which makes it quite a stretch for my small hands. For band repertoire, Percy Grainger's compositions always seem to have interesting parts for the alto clarinet. "Molly On The Shore" and "Lincolnshire Posy" in particular are my favorites.
Susan Keess
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Author: blazian
Date: 2008-02-21 20:25
I have a 1940 Conn 472(?) that I play occasionally. I use a Yamaha 4C on it and it sounds great! I just wish I had a low Eb...
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2008-02-21 23:29
What is it about the alto clarinet that makes it worthwhile? The Bb and Bass have the range totally covered, so there must be some redeeming quality about the way the alto sounds in that range--but what is it?
keep in mind, the alto clarinet is and will always be viewed as the support instrument. however, in a clarinet choir, the alto clarinet plays a more dominant importance as it bridges the gap so to speak between the register of the clarinet and the bass clarinet.
look at this as a hamburger:
Meat: Bb clarinet (The SHIZ!!)
Buns: bass clarinet (the magic the brings the group together)
Lettuce:alto clarinet (although adds to the flavor of the hamburger, one can live without lettuce in your diet, not me)
Pickle:Eb as the pickle (think sour and tangy),
Tomato: contrabass (juicy, rich and delicious)
Cheese: contra alto (adds some cheese hah get it? cheeesee.. oh fine you guys are no fun)
Mayonnaise: Ab. (Some people like um, some people love em. OPTIONAL)
heheheh. I was eating as i wrote this.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: swkeess
Date: 2008-02-22 01:08
O.K., so perhaps the alto clarinet as the ketchup and relish: the finishing touches to a great hamburger. Both of which I cannot eat a hamburger without ... my family always asks me if I want a little hamburger with my ketchup.
Susan Keess
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-02-22 13:26
Although the bass clarinet and the Bb soprano clarinet, between them, cover the alto's whole range, it's convenient to have a clarinet that can split the difference: play lower than the Bb soprano and higher than is convenient on bass. We've had several threads in which bass players complain about composers who write up into the clarion (or even, heaven forfend, above the staff) for bass players who find that range "impossible." Anybody who's listened to Hamiett Bluiett on bass knows the instrument can, too, play that high--but we're not all Hamiett Bluiett (who can reach clarinet altissimo range on just about anything, including a baritone sax).
As an amateur composer, I'd much rather write a part for alto clarinet than ask a bass to squeal away in an uncomfortable (and therefore bad-sounding) part of the range or ask one player to switch quickly between soprano and bass. With an alto in the group, I can write a seamless run for one instrument that crosses the ranges.
Btw, the thread title reminds me of a humorous extra feature on the "Ratatouille" DVD, "Your Friend the Rat," in which animated rats try to persuade the viewer that rats aren't really the filthy, disease-riddled vermin of common knowledge. I'm afraid we alto afficionados are the rodents of the clarinet world....
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-02-22 14:10
Well sayed, Lelia, we A C'ers just grin and bear it, y'know, "slings and arrows" plus "outrageous fortune" . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: davyd
Date: 2008-02-22 17:21
When I was in college, I played the school's Selmer alto clar in the clarinet choir, and in the symphonic band when it was needed (Sketches on a Tudor psalm, Variants on a medieval tune, etc.). I haven't played an alto clar since, but at least I know I could, should the need arise.
Gershwin's "Cuban overture" (orchestra version) is an example of a part that might be a bit easier on the alto clar than on the bass clar, the down-a-fourth compensating for the additional sharp. The part would fit on the smaller instrument, anyway.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-02-22 17:52
Hi Davyd, you really "rang my bell" as our Tulsa Comm. Band reh'd and concertized Cuban, me on bass cl, a year or so ago, a fine piece. Also had A C thots for some speedy work. Ah memories, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-02-22 20:13
This thread inspired me to get my AC out for the first time in a while. It's a Linton (Malerne stencil), leaky, stuffy, tarnished, badly in need of servicing, but I can't justify paying for servicing if I'm not playing it seriously... and I can't justify playing it seriously if it's not serviced. Anyway there are no ACs in our community band, and I think our director likes it that way.
But I tried out a little arrangement I'm working on of a certain familiar composition, for solo (unaccompanied) alto clarinet. There's a passage that needs the timbre of the low chalumeau register, and in the original key it goes from concert G up to the C an octave and a fourth higher. On a B-flat instrument that's A below the staff to fourth line D -- too high; but on the alto clarinet it's E below the staff to second space A. Perfect...
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2008-02-25 20:49
Lelia Loban wrote:
> Although the bass clarinet and the Bb soprano clarinet, between
> them, cover the alto's whole range, it's convenient to have a
> clarinet that can split the difference: play lower than the Bb
> soprano and higher than is convenient on bass. We've had
> several threads in which bass players complain about composers
> who write up into the clarion (or even, heaven forfend, above
> the staff) for bass players who find that range "impossible."
I'm playing the bass clarinet in our band at the moment, and we're working on Holst's Suite, which has a run in my part in the last measure ending on a G above high C. My reaction to it is a desire to remind the composer that the instrument is called a BASS clarinet for a reason, and that's why we have soprano clarinets for the higher notes...
>
> Btw, the thread title reminds me of a humorous extra feature
> on the "Ratatouille" DVD, "Your Friend the Rat," in which
> animated rats try to persuade the viewer that rats aren't
> really the filthy, disease-riddled vermin of common knowledge.
> I'm afraid we alto afficionados are the rodents of the clarinet
> world....
>
There's also the old definition of a nerd: Someone who owns his own alto clarinet...
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-02-25 22:06
"I'm playing the bass clarinet in our band at the moment, and we're working on Holst's Suite, which has a run in my part in the last measure ending on a G above high C."
Presuming you mean the first suite, I happen to have a copy of the score right here, and it indeed shows the bass clarinet run starting at (written) A below the staff and going up well above the staff -- to F, not G, but up there anyway. Funny, I don't remember that from when we played it in high school. I should think I'd've been traumatized enough to remember that.
"My reaction to it is a desire to remind the composer that the instrument is called a BASS clarinet for a reason, and that's why we have soprano clarinets for the higher notes... "
But the 1st clarinet has to play the exact same run! (sounding an octave higher of course) The 2nds and 3rds have the same but with an octave drop in the middle.
And the alto clarinet has the same run as the 1sts and bass -- but on that instrument it starts on low (written) E and ends on high C. Burrrn on all the other clarinets.
(Except the contrabass, doubling the bass sax part, which has two bars rest and a quarter note.)
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2008-02-26 23:49
You're right about the note being an F and not a G... That comes from posting in the middle of a busy day with my music back at home...
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