 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-02-02 02:04
I ask this question because when I search eBay for clarinets and related things many of the sellers have no reserve,all sales are finale,sold as shown and even all things appear to be in great shape but I'm not a muscican(or clarinetists) and I just like to collect clarinets and sell. In my opinion sellers should if they are not a clarinet players themself have a input from the repairman or another clarinetist and should also include how they play similar to what Walter Grabner has on his site for example.
To me it really sounds as they have something to hide.
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2008-02-02 02:45
my experience is that a lot of the sellers on ebay are very honest and open. some are not at all knowledgable about clarinets and others protect themselves. things can go wrong - even new cl's are not perfect and some buyers can be very demanding.
but, yes - there are some sellers who do try to hide things. fortunately they are a small minority.
so buyer beware!
.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2008-02-02 03:16
There may be some scam artists on eBay.A couple of years ago, there were several, but that was then, this is now.
My impression of eBay sellers in general is that they fall into several categories.
One category is folks who go around to estate sales and the like, and pick up pig-in-a-poke musical instruments that no one knows anything about (least of all the seller!) just for the chance of turning a small profit on the resale. There is no malicious intent on the part of the seller, but no knowledge of the product, either. If YOU are knowledgeable, you can pick up some great deals from these sellers.
Closely resembling this sort is the Pawn Shop seller. They often don't know, and don't care, what they are selling. It's just merchandise. Again, good deals to be had, caveat emptor.
Another category of eBay seller is the refurbisher who may in fact be the person who buys the instruments from the fellows mentioned in categories 1 and 1.a. They generally know what they are looking for, know what to do with it, and can sell it for a better (more realistic) price than your local music store. These are often good deals for the beginning player.
Another category of eBay seller is the retail merchant who is basically using eBay as a marketing tool, to expand the scope of his or her established bricks-and-mortar business. You may not get stupendous deals from these folks, but they will usually stand behind their product.
Another "good" eBay seller is the casual seller who has a personal instrument that they need to sell for one reason or another -- they upgraded, they overbought, they are broke, etc., etc. eBay is their Pawn Shop alternative. (This is my favorite category of seller!)
About the only "bad" seller that I find these days is the seller who sells exclusively on auction sites, and generally sells cheap mass-produced ISOs (instrument-shaped objects) to the uninformed consumer. These are the bottom-feeders of online commerce. They are distinguishable by their claims about their instruments -- "Band Director Approved" and "School Approved" are two dead giveaways that you are dealing with one of these. Another giveway is that they advertise "Professional" instruments at a beginner instrument price. (Really, you are NOT going to find a professional oboe for $500!.)
Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to which of these sellers is making the most money in their trade?
Susan
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-02-02 03:37
Okay I know there are both good and bad sellers on eBay but why would good seller who has nothing to hide advertise their item as:sold as shown,all sales are finale and no reserves ?
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2008-02-02 04:20
Again, Iceland-many do not know what they are selling-so they take good pictures (or not) and then let the buyer decided. I buy MANY things off e-bay (besides clarinets), and if you know what you are looking for you can often get the best deals from those who don't know what they are selling. You can't really hide what you don't know exists! All sales are final beacuse they are only interested in getting rid of the merchandise (hopefully at a profit). They sure don't want it back. That said, by watching carefully and consistently for the right items, I have managed to buy quite a few things that I have checked out, relisted and doubled my money. Never a clarinet-I am not qualified to assess those. I have bought a couple off ebay, though and have been extremely satisfied in both cases.
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2008-02-02 04:34
There are a lot of vintage instrument sellers at ebay who know exactly what's wrong with what they're selling and hope you fail to ask the right questions. I've been cheated that way several times (including a few times I was glad to get the item anyway), where the response to my "why didn't you mention that ten of the keys have been soldered and the thumbrest is broken off" (or whatever) was "you should have asked."
But there are certainly unethical or unreasonable buyers out there, too, and a perfectly honest, knowledgeable seller may just want to be protected from them.
I think most of the time, though, the "as is, no returns" sales indicate that the seller doesn't know enough to assess the clarinet's condition accurately.
a vaguely related comment: Ebay and Paypal offer no real protection to buyers, do not believe them when they say they do.
A few years ago I had a Paypal dispute (item not received) decided in my favor; it was a strictly moral victory, no money was returned. More recently, in another dispute (item not as described, refusal to honor return policy), I initiated the resolution process and the next thing I heard (weeks later) was that they had decided in the seller's favor -- without Paypal ever asking me to describe the situation or submit evidence or anything! Fortunately, this happened within (just barely) the window of time where I could still dispute the charge on my credit card, where the case was settled in my favor and I got a full refund.
If you're going to use Paypal, never assume you're protected unless you use a credit card. And don't bother going thru Paypal's 'resolution' process, just call your credit card company.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-02-02 06:29
If I were going to buy a used instrument I would like to get it for say like 4 days trial before I decide to keep it. So it should be better to buy used instruments from Grabner or someone who has a return policy. And no matter how good the pitcures are or if the seller has everything correct about the condition of the instrument and is honest and such I will never know how the clarinet plays until I played it myself. No two pieces of wood sound the same and I have also never seen about any of the instruments for sale on eBay how the tuning and respons of the instrument is.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-02-02 11:04
"but I'm not a muscican(or clarinetists) and I just like to collect clarinets and sell."
So, you are simply a dealer-collector in-of clarinets? In this respect perhaps you are like a good percentage of the sellers who simply buy at auctions and resell without doing any restoration in between. Those dealers are simply turning over merchandise in which they have no interest other than making a profit that is why they typically have no reserve( for which there is a listing extra).
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chelle
Date: 2008-02-02 12:43
"There are a lot of vintage instrument sellers at ebay who know exactly what's wrong with what they're selling and hope you fail to ask the right questions. "
I was recently looking for a vintage alto sax. Came across one that was listed as having no markings on it (apparently, no serial number, and no make). I asked the seller if it said low pitch or LP on it anywhere and the seller admitted to me that he knew it was a high pitch sax (which makes it pretty much useless in any modern ensemble). I suggested that he put that info in his description because it's a pretty important tidbit, but he never did and someone ended up buying it for $200. Whether the buyer knew to ask about high/low pitch, I do't know, but there's a good chance that someone just wanted an instrument to play in a school/community band and they just spent $200 on something that they can't use.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-02-02 19:46
Some do. Try only those with a stated , acceptable return policy. Same for any seller of clarinets.
richard smith
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2008-02-02 20:13
on ebay it seems to me that the greater the bargain, the greater the risk. for a person who has a very definite idea of what they want, and needs to try before they buy, ebay is not really for you. especially if you want a really top end instrument.
if however, you are prepared to put in the time and work, and you ask lots of questions, your chances of being happy are increased.
if you like to take a punt, and don't mind onselling, and even cleaning and repairing a bit, then it is a great place.
if every purchase is good, then you will have been very fortunate. no-one is going to win them all. i buy knowing that there is a reasonable chance i will lose out, but a better chance that i won't.
.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-02 20:55
I too sell the occasional instrument on That Site. I could easily offer a return policy but would need to ask some 50$ more for cleaning and re-refurbishing the instrument. No problem with high-end instruments, but for a student-priced instrument this simply wouldn't work.
There are lots of people around who need something for a weekend gig, without thinking of actually buying it - they'd simply return it saying "I don't like it" and you're sitting there with an uncalculable amount of damage. (Who will guarantee you that you'll get the instrument back in good shape?). No, thank you.
--
Ben
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-02-02 21:59
It's all about protecting yourself. I've only had one bad experience on ebay (as a seller to a buyer), but since then I've had to be more cautious.
If you have any questions, feel free to contact the seller. I've contacted people about clarinets and asked if I can have a week or two of trial. Most of the time, they comply. If not, I have to weight that in to whether it's worth it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-02-02 22:36
I suppose I have been quite lucky, then; Since January 2006 I have made (as of today) 729 purchases from 336 vendors and have been burned only 3 times with a combined total price of less that $100. (known as 129eugene in that unsavory place).
Eu
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2008-02-02 22:40
I'm with the Kiwi on this one - it's an AUCTION.
Trial periods aren't free, in any case.
Every restock has a fee associated.
After the cost of listing, paying the final fees and shipping to Reykjavik the seller will probably decline to do things on the cheap.
If you are considering a secondhand instrument from a seller with a storefront, then you are paying a premium price. Most eBay items sell on price - alone.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-02-03 00:55
Ben is it about keeping the customer happy or just you the seller ? After what you said I would never buy from yu or reccomend you to people. You are turning it all the way round. The seller is always right not the customer is always right. Walter Grabner sends out to you two mouthpieces to try out but you only have to pay for one and if you want them both you just pay him before the trial period is over. That's one reason I've bought from him over and over again.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-02-03 01:05
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> The seller is always right not the customer is always right.
In an auction, except in case of fraud, that is essentially correct. You buy it, it's your problem now.
> Walter Grabner sends out to you two mouthpieces to try out but
> you only have to pay for one and if you want them both you just
> pay him before the trial period is over. That's one reason I've
> bought from him over and over again.
Then continue to buy from him and don't buy from eBay. One is a business, one is an auction. It's a distinction with a difference.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-02-03 01:18
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> Ben is it about keeping the customer happy or just you the
> seller ? After what you said I would never buy from yu or
> reccomend you to people. You are turning it all the way round.
> The seller is always right not the customer is always right.
> Walter Grabner sends out to you two mouthpieces to try out but
> you only have to pay for one and if you want them both you just
> pay him before the trial period is over. That's one reason I've
> bought from him over and over again.
However Walter Grabner stated on his website that he will continue this process only until something goes bad. Meaning until enough people don't honor the return policy that he decides to change it.
I too will sometimes offer a return policy, but only if they pay extra for the listing, shipping, and hassle of having to list it again. And like Ben says, I could see how that could get annoying and up the price of a student instrument by a significant portion of it's original price. a $50 return fee on a $200 dollar instrument is more daunting than a $50 return fee on a $1000+ instrument.
As for the original post, yes. It'd be better for probably both seller AND buyer if they had someone clarinet knowledgeable test and repair clarinets for sale. But sometimes it doesn't happen.
That's why when I checked out a local pawn shop, I saw a CSO (clarinet shaped object) for the same price as a vito resitone. The vito has lots of information and is regarded on these forums as a pretty good clarinet for $100. But the CSO was the same price. And in the same condition.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-03 06:32
> Ben is it about keeping the customer happy or just you the seller ? After
> what you said I would never buy from yu or reccomend you to people. You
> are turning it all the way round. The seller is always right not the customer
> is always right.
I don't do this stuff for a living...
If the customer came and said there's a problem with my stuff I'd see how we settle the affair peacefully - no need for an angry or unhappy customer. But if I had "7 days return no questions asked" thing in the ad, I bet I'd attract a lot of non-serious buyers.
And if I even offered some kind of guarantee - someone might sue the hell out of me if for some reason he had a silly accident with a clarinet. Better safe than sorry.
I'd be happier to sell my stuff face to face.
--
Ben
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Author: larryb
Date: 2008-02-03 12:41
I have bought and sold on ebay a few times.
You just need to be careful and bid accordingly. Do your research. Check seller's ratings and comments. Set an upper bid limit based on your comfort level with the seller and stick to it. Don't be ashamed to be outbid - other opportunities will come soon.
And most of all, Eugene: stop out bidding me at the last second!
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2008-02-03 13:40
I find one thing interesting. Iceland states in the original post;
but I'm not a muscican(or clarinetists) and I just like to collect clarinets and sell.
But you buy items from Walter Grabner and a regular basis? Seems you MIGHT know enough about clarinets to know what you are getting on ebay.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-02-03 14:23
No, Emily's Dad, I think IC was more or less paraphrasing the disclaimers some folks put on their eBay listings when they sell the gear.
For example, Say I inherited an accordion from my late (and not too close) Uncle Waldo. I heard him play the instrument once, maybe twenty years ago. I don't listen to accordion music, so I don't have a basis of expertise to know anything about the quality of the instrument or its particular state of repair. I really don't have any use for the instrument, except maybe to unload it on some unsuspecting drummer. ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Still, in most cases, it's a seller's market on auction sites, so I list it, and say I don't know anything about it, and can offer no guarantees as to its condition or playability. I show accurate photos. I get what I can for the instrument, but the buyer assumes the risk. Not knowing anything about the instrument, it would be foolish for me to offer a guarantee. If they want the instrument, they buy it. If not, someone else might. It's up to the buyer to research the purchase. As long as my photo and listing are accurate, I am covered.
As to Iceland's comments, I don't think it's some kind of conspiracy to defraud buyers. Someone has an item for sale and doesn't know much about it, and wants to get rid of it for whatever the market will offer him. simple as that. Nobody is putting a gun to his head and forcing him to buy anything.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2008-02-03 19:50
My apologies to Iceland.
I have bought two clarinets off that site, both from pawn shops. I got both for great prices. The "pro" model I had repadded and adjusted, and still came out cheap. It is a great sonding horn. The other model(for marching band) needed one pad replaced and a cleanup. The power barrel I got for it cost me more than I had in it! With Alexi I have to say I have only been burnt one time, and that was with a sale. (In that case, I gave a refund and told them to throw the item away, as long as they gave me postive feedback-even though the item worked when I sent it. I had been using it regularly for 2 years!) I have even had those who sold me things "as is" give me a refund when I described to them why the item did not match their description. Sure, there might be crooks, but I sure enjoy the game!
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-02-03 21:13
Emily's Dad said:
"I find one thing interesting. Iceland states in the original post;
but I'm not a muscican(or clarinetists) and I just like to collect clarinets and sell."
This I didn't say myself I only saw that one seller on eBay said this.
And Ben it's not about if something would be wrong about your instrument it's about if it's what "YOU" look for in a clarinet.
When I bought my Festival I got two to try out and they were so different. The one I picked was very powerfull and had a deep tone and was very easy to control. The other one was more mute sounding (more like the Toscas I've tried) and was a little bit more difficult to control. If I wouldn't had the second Festival(the one I did choose) to try out I would probably have taken the Selmer St.Louis after a long thought or went to antoher shop.
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2008-02-03 22:37
i have sold about 30 clarinets by internet auction locally and offered a no questions asked right of return for 4 of them. these were top end instruments that i had had completely apart and was totally confident with. i also felt entitled to put a higher reserve on them because of the guarantee.
i have seen that there are some traders on ebay who do this with similar instruments.
.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-02-04 01:29
Golly, Larry, I've been outbid on stuff in the last 10 seconds 3 times for every time I was the lucky guy to get in the last winning bid. If the item is something that attracts a lot of bidders, things can get wild right at the end.
But if I can't successfully bid on something because someone outbids me at the end, I figure that's the name of the game. So, I do hope you were chastising me rather tongue in cheek.
Eu
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-04 06:11
> And Ben it's not about if something would be wrong about your instrument
> it's about if it's what "YOU" look for in a clarinet.
Why on earth would you want to use That Auction Site for such thing? I'd try a local shop, or I'd try a traditional mail order house, but certainly not e***. It might be okay for selling the odd collector's item, but IMHO "try&buy" just doesn't work with auctions.
"I don't like it" is never a legal reason to undo an auction sale as long as the description of objectively measurable qualities is accurate.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-02-04 07:36
Iceland- it is not a store. That is why you don't get the benifits of a store. If it were a store you would be paying as much as a store.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-02-04 15:26
Although I am not currently selling anything on eBay, and really don't have anything to sell in the near future, I used to sell quite a few clarinets and clarinet accessories. I did it for fun. It was a great way to learn about all the different brands of clarinets and mouthpieces, etc. I had a couple of friends who owned music stores (well, one managed a music store and the other owned one) and through those two was able to purchase new clarinets at a good discount (roughly the wwbw price). But, I had the opportunity to hand select from 20 or so new Buffet R-13s and other brands from one friend here who was a central buyer for several stores. Sometimes I bought used and had it checked for pads, etc. before listing on eBay.
I tried really hard to have the instrument set-up like I wanted it to be as a player. I always offered a return/refund. I met a lot of great people. Some of them were parents needing help with their beginners, some were pros and semi-pros and hobbyists.
There were a lot of honest sellers when I was selling, but there were also the dishonest types. I always recommend people to check the feedback and see what kind of experience others had with the seller. If they don't offer a refund, then don't buy it unless you don't mind running a risk.
Although I am a careful buyer, I was still taken several times. Once I bought a Kaspar mouthpiece from someone who had a pretty good reputation, but the mouthpiece was garbage with a capital G. He advertised no refund and all sales final, but I had the mouthpiece checked out by Brad Behn and others and all agreed it was total garbage. I contacted him and tried to return it, but he really got angry and accused me of trying to ruin his reputation and said it made him "have really bad feelings" toward me. DUH!!! Like I feel warm and fuzzy toward him.
Anyway, it took a while for me to get over the loss, but I did. I've also been taken on instruments. It goes with the territory. It's fun to browse and buy and even to buy and sell, but you really have to be able to take a hit now and then or don't play the game.
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Author: ianm
Date: 2008-02-04 16:33
I would like to contribute to the discussion in two ways.
Firstly may I refer contributors to advice regarding the buying of vintage instruments at www.justsaxes.com/links/buyingonbay.html.
Secondly may I advise that "shill bidding"/or bidding on behalf of of the seller may be more common on ebay than is recognised. Indeed this has happened also in the London auction houses. About 18 months ago I placed a bid on a howarth clarinet and was the only bidder until I was outbid at the last second. Two days later I was contacted by the seller to say that the winner had withdrawn and would I like to buy the clarinet at the winning price. I examined the withdrawing winners profile and it became obvious that the bid had come from the seller using a different ebay identity. This raised my awareness of this possibility and I examined in a previous purchase of an eaton clarinet. Again I had been the only bidder but the price had risen at the last second to just below my maximum. This second bidder, creating this rise in price was registered in close proximity to the seller and had a sparse profile. It is unfortunate that recent changes to ebay rules hiding the identity of bidders has made shill bidding much easier, nevertheless buyers should be aware of this possibility.
Ian
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Author: ianm
Date: 2008-02-04 17:05
web address correction
www.justsaxes.com/links/buyingonebay.html
Ian
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2008-02-04 18:47
<<<I ask this question because when I search eBay for clarinets and related things many of the sellers have no reserve,all sales are finale,sold as shown and even all things appear to be in great shape but I'm not a muscican(or clarinetists) and I just like to collect clarinets and sell.>>>
If sellers are willing to accept returns, that's great. In most cases, the final bid will probably be much higher with the assurance that the item can be returned. The seller gets something in return for offering that option.
OTOH, I can completely understand why a lot of people stipulate that sales are final and returns are not accepted. You open yourself up to a lot of risk and possible expense if you accept returns. The instrument might come back damaged, or in need of a lot of additional clean-up before it can be sold again. It might not be packed well for the return. There are people out there who will swap out parts to use on their own piece, similar to the one that was auctioned (this is even more common in the case of electronic items, especially in the case of vintage items where working parts are hard to find). In the case of vintage or antique items, what happens if the buyer has already started to tinker with the item before they decide they don't want it? There's the question of who pays shipping/insurance each way. Also, an eBay seller is immediately responsible for the listing and final value fees, plus PayPal fees. Those can really add up, and the whole process can be a big hassle.
The sentiment for the seller might be: "I want to be finished with this transaction. Make your decision on what you wish to bid based on the available information." Auctions really are different from someone running a store. Someone who's liquidating an item on eBay may not have a lot of time for additional after-sale customer service. They most likely have nothing to hide.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-04 19:21
...and if we're dealing with out-of-country sellers/buyers, returns can get downright hairy (I have to pay import duties and VAT but most probably won't get it back when I return the item, and the seller might face "import" duties too on the returned item).
--
Ben
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Author: 53engine
Date: 2008-02-04 20:14
I am curious about Iceland Clarinet's comments about this because in them he says that he is not a clarinetist. Previously he has written a good deal on his likes and dislikes of certain players such as Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer and Julian Bliss and his comments are very negative. This is what he wrote about Leister's masters class:
Author: Iceland clarinet (---.rhi.hi.is - ISP in Reykjav 10 Iceland)
Date: 2007-04-26 18:03
I saw this masterclass but I didn't like the playing style of any of the students or Leister himself. I also noticed that he had some paper under his lip that tells me what I already knew HE BITES. I liked his input on the F minor sonata by Brahms but a thought he didn't tell the student who played the Phantasiestücke to support the passages specially in the middel section of the second piece. You have to follow the piano with lot of suport and dramatic to each note in the ending before the main melody returns in the second piece. This is a very romantic pieces not classic.
Perhaps, there are two Iceland Clarinets, one that is negative and one that doesn't play.
More to the point of the thread, though, I had a business on ebay selling clarinet and sax mouthpieces for 4 years and I sold upwards of 4,000 pieces. My wife was able to quit work for a couple of years, but one thing I can tell you from my experience. I had probably 800, 900 or more positives and maybe 20 or fewer negatives, half of which were true misunderstandings that we cleared up, no foul, no harm type of thing. The rest were either people who were looking for a problem, which is easy to discern from their feedbacks or I really deserved because of late shipping or something like that. About half of that time, I didn't even use pictures.
A lot of people are just plain "not too bright", like the young woman who was buying Selmer HS*'s from me as fast as I could listing them. I was listing 3 and 4 at a time since I had just gotten a deal of 100 of them. She bought about 7 and then started complaining. She told me that she was a graduate student of a very famous and highly respected New York player, I won't mention the name, and that she was trying to find a good mouthpiece. I scolded her, saying that if she was that advanced and her concept of finding a mouthpiece was buying an unseen, untried Selmer HS*, she was the problem, not me.
Ebay is a wonderful, true market. I worked hard to find deals and people got what they wanted for the price that they wanted to pay. I made a good deal of money and had a lot of satisfied customers. I also made some wonderful friends and colleagues.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-02-05 09:24
53engine I'm not going to correct you but if you would read the whole thread you wouldn't missunderstand it so badly.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-02-05 12:30
I have the highest respect for Terry Guidetti and his wife but it seems that those who knock eBay either don't know anything about it or have competitive selling interests. Some of the latter have opted to use Amazon as their selling agent.
I have no financial interest in eBay but object to those who knock it for no reason other than it gives them competition.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2008-02-05 13:34
I can happily say I never had anyone return an instrument to me and I sold more than 300 clarinets on eBay, from Buffet R-13s to Opus II and down in price to the Leblanc V40. Mouthpieces were often returned after a play-test, but I never had an instrument come back (except for a couple that I purchased back from the buyer a couple of years later). The trick was communication with the buyer and sending out as nearly perfect an instrument as possible.
Also, although someone above posted that sellers up their price so they can offer a refund...I never did that. I did say there would be a fee for any repairs that were needed if an instrument was returned and that would be kept out of the refund amount.
The buyer always pays the shipping unless a promotional "free shipping" is included in the deal.
As I said, I'm not selling right now.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-02-05 17:06
"This I didn't say myself I only saw that one seller on eBay said this."
Iceland: Your initial post was not clear to me either and I imagine a number of other readers interpreted your "non-player comment" as a self reference. I'm sure I'd have a hard time making myself understood in any Scandanavian language.
Bob Draznik
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The Clarinet Pages
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