 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-01-10 19:07
Can someone please advise me as to the quality of the Selmer Model AS-700 Alto Sax? I have a friend who is considering purchasing this model for her son. Our sons play sax together in our elementary school band, and I think she wants to buy a sax now that they've stuck with it for four months.
Is this the replacement horn for the good old Bundy 2, which is what my son plays on?
I checked Woodwind and Brass, but they don't carry this model. I want to steer her clear of "saxophone shaped objects," and make sure she gets something decent.
Thanks!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-01-10 22:20
Hi Cindy,
You pose a very interesting question. I have Selmer Paris Mark VIs through Super 80s in my sax arsenal but have begun to add Yamaha saxes as backups. However, I started my grand-daughters on Ridenour 147 clarinets recntly and even have one for a backup.
What's my point? Well, as I have said earlier on this BB, it is a brave new clarinet (as well as flute and saxophone) world out there. Granted, as a professional musician I will probably not do any serious performances on some of the instruments since Selmer/Buffet/LeBlanc and others have the edge when splitting hairs is important. However, as beginning, intermediate, or back up instruments the Asian woodwinds seem to fill the bill very well (and the bill is not too high).
The critical factor though is can you get repairs? Will your local tech work on these instruments. If buying from a dealer, that would be pretty well covered.
Many of us are beginning to rethink the items I have mentioned above but others will still prefer the tried and true names in musical instruments. Who can blame them.
HRL
PS I picked up a brand new Vito 200 open hole, low B foot flute recently from a major dealer for $99. It plays great and has a beautiful case and cover (almost worth the purchase price alone). The LeBlanc name is clearly stated but we all know it is an Asian-made instrument.
Post Edited (2008-01-10 22:25)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-01-11 16:24
Hank,
If one takes the cost of a decent new intermediate saxophone, that amount could purchase a stunningly beautiful high quality vintage saxophone from a choice of reputable sellers. I'm a big fan of 1930's Buescher New Aristocrat and Aristocrat saxophones. I, personally, would take one of them over most new horns on the market in a New York heartbeat. Of course, vintage saxophones are not for everyone and one needs to know their subject matter to avoid being ripped off or getting a less than quality horn. Never the less, this is another alternative.
As an example of what I'm taking about check this out:
http://www.vintagesax.com/
Roger
Post Edited (2008-01-11 16:26)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-01-11 18:16
Hi Roger,
I am well acquainted with the vintage saxes you are talking about and have owned a The Martin Tenor, a Selmer Radio Improved tenor, a King Super 20 alto, and a Buescher 400 TH & C tenor. Nice instruments but it can be a little tricky to get replacement parts. Ever try to get a neck for a The Martin Tenor?
My main issue with the vintage saxes is ergonomics. Also, I have had people tell me that I sound much better (brighter and more focused) on my Super 80 alto than on my Mark VI. My Mark VI tenor is unbeatable.
In the case that Cindy is asking about though, a vintage instrument is probably not the best choice. Perhaps when the student gets into HS or college, one of the classic sax beauties might be a good choice. But then, a Yamaha YTS or YAS 62II might be considered vintage.
HRL
PS I have or have had several vintage clarinets (Selmer 9, 9*, 10G; R13'; and LeBlanc Dynamic 2 & L200) but play my Yamaha CS Custom as my #1. A Ridenour 147 is my backup.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-01-11 19:31
I started out on a 1925 Buescher True Tone and it served me well until I got a better horn.
There are always trade-offs when it comes to instruments. I was writting mostly from the quality angle. The quality of the finer vintage saxophones (like Buescher, Conn, Martin, Selmer, etc) is really hard to beat with a modern horn in a comparable price range. That's the main point I wanted to make -- better quality for a comparable price.
Of course, there are many variables involved in selecting an instrument. I'm lucky in having a top-notch saxophone repair tech in the area who shares my love of vintage horns. However, if I lived in an area that didn't have such a tech it would make the use of vintage instruments more problematic.
I understand the various reasons for having a young player start out on an Asian import. Never the less, I cannot help but cringe when I think about the amount of money spent on such a horn and the quality of the import versus a good vintage horn that could be purchased for that amount.
Roger
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-11 19:54
I bought my first alto working in grocery stores at 25 cents/hr, a Buescher, True Tone, as I recall, in 1935, $125 I believe. Finding silver "our of style" in 1950 I got a Martin, GL, and dance-banded with it and a Martin bari for a few yares. I found my Selmer 6 tenor in a pawn shop, as later I found my GREAT Sel 6 alto and never looked back. So I also have some vintage experiences. Recently I was asked to evaluate/repair a "Mannheim" alto which obviously had been trashed, beyond economic repair. It was prob. of Asian origin, but appeared well put-together, had a high F# and other "qualities", and our best comm band Alto player plays well, fast and in tune on a ?silver" Asian? , so a conclusion to all this, not all bad, I guess. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-01-11 23:38
Hi Don and Roger,
And it is the same with vintage versus automobiles, stereo equipment, and cameras to name a few products that have vintage versus current issues.
As far as clarinets, I never thought I'd see the day when there was ever a reasonable alternative to Selmer, Buffet, and LeBlanc. The along came Yamaha as well as other manufacturers. That might have been the second wave of modern musical instrument development.
Now the third wave as exemplified by Cindy's friend's dilemma (and perhaps echoed by my Ridenour 147 clarinet and Vito 200 flute adventures). Are we about to experience new instruments of good to better quality from the Pacific Rim at what woudl seem to be fire sale prices.
Is what I said earlier "I will probably not do any serious performances on some of the instruments since Selmer/Buffet/LeBlanc and others have the edge when splitting hairs is important" now under assualt as well.
But my mind is open!
HRL
Post Edited (2008-01-12 01:39)
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-01-12 00:48
Hello Friends. Thanks for all of the comments and advice, once again. The sax my friend is looking at is actually a Jupiter, a brand new one. I got an ok response from someone I respect on this board. For a 4th grader, I think this sax is going to be ok. I see how 10 year olds treat instruments, and wouldn't get a professional one for this age group.
I guess it is a whole new world. I've got a foot in both, because my two favorite clarinets are my Selmer Series 9, and my Yamaha YCL 250. Yes, I still like the plastic ones.
Now, if anyone who doubles on the sax can tell me how to get the low C note....I'm ready to listen....I've tried it three different times on both of my saxes.....and can't get it.
Cindy.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-01-12 01:48
Cindy,
I've not played one but the Jupiter looks to be a nice instrument. A repair tech I know (a clarinet major BTW) was very impressed by their clarinets several years ago.
As far as the low register, the embouchure is quite a bit different on sax and requires a much more relaxed lower lip. Since the sax has a conical bore, producing the lower notes takes a bit more care. Leaks at the upper end of the instrument can make the low register a challenge.
HRL
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-12 01:53
I had this trouble on my slightly-played Mark 6, used a leak light, and found several very small leaks, adjusted pads etc, plays much better. I still have to work to get a sax embouchure rather than a clar. emb. to be comfortable, with low volume ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-01-12 03:40
Hmm.
I've worked on a large number of "vintage" saxes. Typically it is like working on neglected vintage cars. They tend to exhibit a wide range of inadequate and band-aid types of servicing.
It is often extremely time consuming to get them up to the standard of a good new instrument, while at the same time dealing to some of the mechanical design inadequacies of their day. Hence very expensive.
I think it is poor advice to suggest that somebody go down this road, unless that person is prepared for some fairly large additional expenses.
It is not often that you can buy a "vintage" sax in top, reliable condition.
For some, that need a complete overhaul, their value is actually $0.00, because their value after a complete overhaul is much the same as the cost of that overhaul.
BTW, the original question was not about a top model sax. It was not even a real Selmer. USA Selmer should not be basking in any of the glory that French Selmer has; they are unrelated.
This question was about student model instruments. How did replies head towards vintage and top models?
Sorry, Cyndyr, I am not too familiar with the model asked about.
You can't go too far wrong with a student Yamaha.
Post Edited (2008-01-12 03:47)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-01-12 07:33
Do I understand right and the Prelude and AS700 is just two names for the same sax? I saw the Prelude recently. I didn't check it a lot and played it just a little but it was probably the newer, better version because it felt like a decent student model saxophone. I would trust Steve Howard's advice too.
I've tried many Jupiters. I was never really impressed with their 500 series saxophones, which are their least expensive and lowest level saxophones (in good condition they could be ok for students). Their 700 series (and above) saxophones that I've tried were all much better and some were excellent.
I persoanlly don't like the Bundy II at all compared with just about any decent student model like Yamaha or Jupiter. From a repair point of view the Bundy II is one of my least favorite.
I agree with Gordon about vintage saxophones. That especially doesn't sound like the way to go in this specific case, where the parents will probably beed to do a lot of research just to find what's what.
IMO it is better to just say the country you are ferring to than say "Asian". There are saxophones coming from Asia from the nastiest and worst to some of the best ones made today.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2008-01-12 10:46
Clarnibass, I think that would be great if rather than Asian, I knew the country. My choice of a regional (global) reference was because I do not know the exact location and did not want to make an erroneous statement. Can you help with a country of origin?
Gordon, Roger's statement that "If one takes the cost of a decent new intermediate saxophone, that amount could purchase a stunningly beautiful high quality vintage saxophone from a choice of reputable sellers." was what shifted the focus to vintage.
Don, I got a can of Tone Woodwind - All Pad and Bore Formula from my tech to spray on sax pads of an instrument that is not played often. He said that just a little softening on older pads (some on my Mark VI tenor are original) would take care of many small leaks. A little messy but before an important gig, a seemingly good thing.
HRL
Post Edited (2008-01-12 11:59)
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2008-01-12 15:20
Ok, I'll keep trying to get that "relaxed" sax embouchure. It's not an easy transition. I think the saxes are ok, since I had a repair tech. work on both of them in December. Thanks again for all of the advice!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-12 16:08
Use plenty of breath support for the low notes below D, and I've found plenty of embouchure support also helps to control any 'bubbling' that can happen in the low register. You'll have to experiment to find the right balance of both embouchure and breath suport, but do make sure you don't tighten up as you play up top as this will make saxes go sharp. Keep the embouchure pretty much the same across the range, but never tighten up to get the top notes.
Jupiter have done a lot of work in improving things since the '80s and are producing very good instruments from both their Chinese and Taiwanese factories, and I would have bought myself a couple of 700 series Jupiters (an alto and tenor for outdoor playing) had the Yamaha 32 alto and tenor not come my way.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2008-01-12 23:31
I haven't had an oppurtunity to try any Jupiter saxophones. However, I am VERY IMPRESSED with my DiMedici (Jupiter) alto flute.
I stand by my thoughts about vintage saxophones being an alternative to the price of a Chinese import. I understand that the quality of Chinese imports is improving. Never the less, the ones that I've seen so far typically have thin metal and soft keywork. One of my sax buddies has a Chinese import and the horn often needs a trip to the repair tech for adjustments.
When I speak about vintage horns I'm meaning quality instruments....not old junk. There are a number of vintage saxophone sellers (that one can learn about on the Sax On The Web Forum) from which one can get a quality vintage horn in top-notch condition for a price that's comparable to a new Asian import. This is what I'm suggesting as a possible alternative.
However, there are several potential problems with vintage instruments that I've already mentioned. One needs to have a level of eduction about the vintage brands and models. And, it's helpful to have a repair tech in the area who is good with vintage instruments. I fully understand that this is not going to work for everyone.
It would be an interesting test to give a good-condition vintage saxophone and a new Chinese import to young students and see how each horn fares after a school year. My bet would be on the more rugged vintage American saxophone.
All of that said, I agree with Gordon's suggestion about a Yamaha student model saxophone. I'm very impressed with the quality and overall playability of Yamaha student instruments. It's very hard to beat them for the price.
Roger
Post Edited (2008-01-13 01:17)
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