 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CWH
Date: 2007-12-26 19:43
I have a great collections of fine Leblanc horns, ranging from small bore to big bore. Most of these horns date from the early 1960’s. In this collection have a few big bore horns; a Pete Fountain, LL, Dynamic and a Dynamic 2. My question here is I have no experience to really speak of when it comes to Selmer big bores, more particularly the Selmer 9. I am particularly interested on the pros and cons of each. I have an opportunity to pick a Selmer 9 at a reasonable price, but before I commit to the purchase. I would love to hear some feedback from players who have enjoyed both.
Thank you for your input.
CWH
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-12-26 19:56
I like the older Leblancs, mainly their flexibility and limpid expressiveness. My problem with them is they lack "umpf." Where's the beef? Where's the bottom of scale? No fullness or power. Pretty, but wimpy. The tone is all on the surface, like icing.
The pre-10 series Selmers do have a nice full scale. The Series 9 was not my favorite but some here think they are the *best* big-bore Selmers.
Advice? Wait and get a Centered Tone. Or, be even cooler and get an N series Selmer. Luigi say "Now DAT's a Selmer!"
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-26 20:15
An N-series Centered Tone is definitely worth getting hold of (if it's in good condition or can be salvaged), though there's nothing wrong with P, Q or R series CTs.
I've got a late LL full Boehm which I use fairly regularly, and it's a pretty close call between it and my A-series Series 9 full Boehm Bb. It's swings and roundabouts - they do things just as well and other things better than each other, enough to strike a good balance which gives neither of them the upper hand.
Though the Leblanc is the more sturdily-built of the two - but it doesn't have a metal lined middle socket like the Selmer, and probably less likely to split through the C#/G# and C/G toneholes as a result.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CWH
Date: 2007-12-26 20:38
Hello Chris and Bill,
Thank you so much for your input to this discussion. Bill I know exactly what your talking about where is the “oomph”. It took me several years to find it, and went through count less number of horns in the process. With that in mind I have to say my, 1964 Pete Fountain and “old-guy” Dynamic have it. I also have a very sweet LL that was once owned by (Mr. X) that plays with a clearest throat tones. I guess my question is in the end is it really any better than those I own? I just have no experience with Selmer horns at all, shied away from them I guess. For what reason I have long forgotten. Can you tell me more about this CT / N series? Correct me if I’m wrong but, CT is centered toned, and is N the letter for year of manufacturing (like N5554). Would that be correct?
Thank you
CWH
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-26 21:20
"Correct me if I’m wrong but, CT is centered toned, and is N the letter for year of manufacturing (like N5554). Would that be correct?"
You've got it in a nutshell. Though the CT will normally have the words 'Centered Tone' between the Selmer logo and the throat A key tonehole, as well as the large (and pretty much solid) hexagonal speaker bush (the later one had a narrower thread, but still with a large hexagonal head) - pre-CT Selmers had the large round two-piece hollow speaker bush, the larger threaded outer part is domed on top and the speaker tube is a push fit into this (fig. 1 & 2):
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdraw?DB=EPODOC&IDX=FR857008&F=0&QPN=FR857008
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-12-26 22:26
I was suggesting CWH obtain a Selmer from before the Centered Tone, i.e., an N series Selmer that had no model name. These are my favorite Selmers. There was never a model name associated with them.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-12-27 00:05
>"In this collection have a few big bore horns; a Pete Fountain, LL, Dynamic and a Dynamic 2".<
LL, Dynamic and Dynamic 2 are not big the bore instruments. The bore is ABOUT 14.80 mm which doesn't qualify as a big bore design.
As Bill noticed most of older/classic Leblancs lack "umpf".
When someone tries to squash naturally occurring twelves for better tuning that's what you get. Better tuning but no "umpf".
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-12-27 15:56)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-27 08:10
I thought about getting a new set of clarinets just over 10 years back, but couldn't find anything that I felt could better my N series Bb (non-CT type, and P-series CT A that came with it), plus the fact that the only optional keywork available is a LH Ab/Eb (sometimes not even an option on some makes, who once offered all beLLs and whistles on their entry level pro clarinets before accountants ran the company) - none of the top models offered articulated C#/G# or forked Eb/Bb.
I liked the way the Leblanc Concerto ('90s version) played, but it didn't have what my old Selmer has in direct comparison.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-12-27 14:45
Vytas, that is fascinating about the twelfths on older Leblancs! I never knew "why" these clarinets sounded the way they did. Though I observed them to have somewhat better tuning than other instruments of the same era.
Thanks!
Bill.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-12-27 17:19
I'm entering this fine discussion late, due to Chr. travel, but having a CT, P series , my BEST 17/6 !, and a DYN 2 [18/7, a Pete F type ?], and Selmers, RI FB, and 1929 A, all of which play somewhat differently !!, I thot I should give some comments. As to bore diameter, the CT is a "full" .590" = 15 mm. The Dyn 2 mikes out at .585", will measure the others if asked. It may interest you-all [y'all ] that Ron Hockett, Jim Cullen's Dixie-Jazz Riverwalk Jazz Band, San Antonio, TX, told me he plays several Selmer 10's, depending? on the music, he's my present D - J idol. Nuff fer naow? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-12-27 17:28
Hi Don, I didn't know that Ron Hockett is in Texas now! Although I'm sure he wouldn't remember me, I played with him some 15 or 20 years ago in Brooks Tegler's group in DC -- if you see Ron please tell him I said hello. He's an awesome player in the older styles of jazz.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-12-27 18:01
Chris,
When did these alleged accounting department coups occur? Were they bloodless? Reported in the press? Details, please! This is the second time recently that someone on this Board has reported accountants' taking over musical instrument manufacturers (and, in the other case, the U.S. auto industry). Two reports is confirmation. I'm becoming concerned. Left unchecked, these accountants could become a threat to world peace!
Or is it possible that the manufacturers' management (and possibly owners) have decided not to expend time and money designing and tooling for the production of clarinets that less than 5% (1%?) of their customer base desire/are willing to pay for? Or that management realized that they might have to take some steps to contain increasing labor, material and overhead costs if they wanted to stay in business without raising their prices to the level of oboes or, God forbid, bassoons.
What bells and whistles does Howarth offer on its clarinets these days? Is your company run by (the) accountants?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-12-27 18:06
Hey, folks! Go easy on us poor mousey little accountants . . . we mean no harm when we strive to prop up the bottom line. After all, if the profit is down, we get hung up by our thumbs! (spelling correction)
EuGene
Retired CPA
Clarinettist wannabe
Post Edited (2007-12-27 18:17)
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Author: CWH
Date: 2007-12-27 18:19
After reading Vytas post I went back just like Don did and got out my digital vernier and starter to examine a few of the horns we have been speaking of. Here are the results I found:
LL 0.582 14.8
Dyn H 0.590 15.0
P.F. 0.950 15.0
L27 0.580 14.75
L200 0.575 14.6
L300 0.575 14.6
Just for comparison
Buffet
R13 0.572 14.52
Selmer
10 0.572 14.52
10S 0.573 14.55
Other Leblanc ID’s to follow.
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
Post Edited (2007-12-27 18:19)
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Author: David White
Date: 2007-12-29 20:54
Over some 30 years I have owned 2x Selmer series 9, 2x Buffet R13 & 2x Selmer CT clarinets. And recently a LeBlanc Dynamic for about six months.
I always felt the series 9 Selmers had a sort of killer instinct built in and they had plenty of volume for playing in a jazz (swing style) group.
The Buffet R13's (1976 model approx) I thought had a nicer tone and were not as cutting as the series 9's. Over several years I alternated between these brands and was playing professionally several gigs a week.
I bought an old Selmer pre BT and liked it, also a CT , other players in the band immediately noticed that the sound and tone of the CT and commented on it although I did not tell them it was a differen clarinet.
I sold this CT & the old 1928 Selmer and bought a CT from Vytas (an Omega Paris 1956 model), this one is a bit better than the normal CT and will "nail" any gig no matter what I am working with, whether the trio; myself with bass and guitar, or with drums and a trumpet added, it never lacks the power.
The LeBlanc Dynamique is beautifully made has noticablely good intonation
but in a noisier setting I feel as if I may not have enough power to prevail as a lead instrument. (this clarinet was overhauled by Vytas, and he said it was a very good LeBlanc). The LeBlanc is a pleasure to play, but when the chips are down the Selmer will definitely get the job done.
East Side Jazz Band
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Author: Avie
Date: 2007-12-29 22:30
This may be a bit off the subject but I own a "68" Buffet "Super Dynaction" clarinet and the bore size measures about the same size as the R13 along with everything else about the R13. Im not savy enough to know any other differances.
I know they were Mfgr'd in france from 1966- 1974 but mine is apparently one of only one other to be found at this time although it is written that it is not in demand at this time. Some say that it was used in Jazz bands in the sixties to keep up with the big bore sax's!
Are there other features on a "Jazz" clarinet besides a slightly larger bore to give it a more Jazzy sound. Any info on this clarinet will be appreciated. Thanks.
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Author: David White
Date: 2007-12-29 23:13
The mouthpiece used will make a big difference. I used a VanDoren 5JB for 30 years with all the various clarinets. Quite a few players I know in the jazz field here in Australia play the 5JB. During this time I would have played at approx. 3,600 professional gigs. I used the 5JB's with Mitchell Lurie #2 premium reeds. I replaced the MP a few times over that period.
About six months back I bought a jazz faced Vytas Krass MP and I use it with #2.5 Mitchell Lurie premium reeds. Vytas can supply a MP faced on a quality blank or you can send him a suitable blank for him to reface.
Some of my friends here have had success with these VK jazz mp's.
There is a big difference between a classical style MP and a Jazz faced one.
Difference in volume, ease of blowing, type of tone etc.
East Side Jazz Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-30 07:31
Avie, there are no specific clarinets that are 'Jazz specific' - even the alleged Jazz clarinets such as the Leblanc Pete Fountain, Selmer CT and Buffet 'Jazz Festival' can be played in the most conservative manner by the most conservative of players, likewise a B&H 1010, Buffet RC or Leblanc Concerto can be twisted into all sorts of shapes by a Jazz player.
It's all about what the player can do, and not all down to the clarinet. Same with saxes - there's no Classical or Jazz specific sax - there are Jazz players playing Buffet S1 altos and Classical players playing Selmer MkVI altos.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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